Abortion and Terrorism
April 5th, 2007 by Matt
I apologize for not finishing off the series on 2 Peter but hopefully we’ll get to that next week. I had the privilege to attend a benefit dinner for the Alpha Pregnancy Center Friday, March 30th. Back in my childhood/college days, I used to believe that abortion was a woman’s choice, and “proved” it using scripture too. (i.e. the fetus is like plant life because it doesn’t breathe. I know…that was pretty ridiculous.) Of course as a Christian who is now actually attempting to think about what I believe and investigate “things”, I realize abortion is the destruction of life…murder.
At the banquet, Alan Keyes was the keynote speaker. A few of the points of his presentation can be summarized as follows:
- Children bring out the self sacrificing, unconditional love of the parents who take care of them
- Babies wield great power…more than guns, bombs, military strength…because no one else could launch a parent from their bed at 3am to do something night after night.
- Terrorism is, at its core, the blatant disregard for killing of innocent lives to promote a way of life.
- Abortion is, at its core, the blatant disregard for killing of innocent lives to promote a way of life.
This linking of abortion and terrorism shocked my socks off, and yet it makes a lot of sense. Lets see…the perceived external threat that the United States is under from terrorism is actually something that we are already subscribed to as a nation. (As a side note, bringing this to a more personal level, how many times have you noticed sin in other people’s lives that really bothered you, only later realizing you do it yourself?)
As I see it, the fight against abortion is right in step with the preaching of the gospel. Why can’t the school nurse administer an aspirin to your child without getting parental consent but can take a your child to an abortion clinic to have an abortion without even notifying you? Sounds like a spiritual battle to me. People need to know the truth so they can be free. There are so many people out there hurting from having had abortions, hurting from the sin that got them into a place where they would consider having an abortion, ultimately hurting because they haven’t experienced the good news of the gospel of the kingdom. Speaking the gospel to people is the main thing, but I believe it is ineffective when devoid of the love and compassion that Jesus showed in his preaching of it and dying for it. What makes the most impact on people’s lives is getting involved in them. Think back in your own Christian journey…who was the most influential person that helped you repent and live for God and His son Jesus Christ?
I’m kind of all over the place today…but I just wanted to throw the fundamental similarity between abortion and terrorism and see what people think.
Matt,
“Why can’t the school nurse administer an aspirin to your child without getting parental consent but can take a your child to an abortion clinic to have an abortion without even notifying you?”
Let’s not get carried away.
This is only true in certain states. In most states, either actual parental consent or parental notification are required. In some states, the consent or notification of *both* parents is required.
“Speaking the gospel to people is the main thing, but I believe it is ineffective when devoid of the love and compassion that Jesus showed in his preaching of it and dying for it.”
Amen!
Thanks for the clarification. Even though there are only a few states like that, there are still people living in those states who have children and are subjected to those laws. The fact that those kind of laws exist in any state should awaken some sense of caution/concern in us. To me I see that as being similar to saying “I only have gangrene in a couple of my fingers.” I think what these kinds of things should scream out to us is that the collective moral fiber of the nation is being eroded away by the cancerous sin nature that has gone unchecked through the lack of belief in and repentance in light of the gospel. We’ve had it easy in this country for a long time, slowly making allowances for evil, which is now multiplying at an ever increasing pace. It will truly be awesome when the true King of the Earth takes his rightful throne in Jerusalem…we won’t have to deal with this kind of stuff. But until then we must stand for the truth and defend those who cannot defend themselves (especially those with no voice).
Amazing to read what speakers come up with to get their audiences “reason”ably switched off and “emotion”ally switched on … “terrorism” apparently is the prime “excuse” or “means” to achieve certain things (especially in the US) …
I suppose we all know about the “nothing new under the sun” statement in the Scriptures … using “terrorism” to pull the wool over the public’s eye in order to achieve certain aims is nothing new either …
@Matt: Your statement was not just “a bit inflammatory”, as Karen mentioned, it was inaccurate. And as such, it was actually misleading; in addition it reflected also how the speaker apparently influenced you to follow his not quite accurate arguments ….
I’d suggest that we become watchful and sober and that we walk circumspectly instead of being easily carried away …
Cheers,
Wolfgang
You and Karen are correct. I just re-read what I wrote in the blog and it is misleading/inaccurate. The truth is there are parental notification laws in many states. The following link (if accurate) provides additional details:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:USMinorAbortionLawsMap.png
I think either you missed the point of what I was attempting to say in the article or I didn’t do a very good job of communicating it. I don’t deny that terrorism has been used in this country along with other things to “pull the wool” over peoples eyes or distract them from the real aim of certain policies.
Why would someone strap a bomb onto themselves and go into an area with innocent people and then blow themselves up and attempt to take as many innocents with them as possible? I suppose it is because they’ve been brought up in a system of belief in which that is the “right” thing to do, and the leaders encouraging it get their ideology spread. In a similar way, abortion takes the lives of many innocent children AND severely damages the women to whom these procedures are performed (if not physically then certainly emotionally). In both cases lies are promulgated as truth, people are deceived, and sin results. The shocking part about this to me is the fact that while practically everyone would condemn a terrorist’s actions of taking innocent lives we over-look how we are taking innocent lives right in our neighborhoods, cities, states, country. As you say there is “nothing new under the sun”, just like our ability to point out what is wrong with everyone else and totally miss our own faults.
Thanks for your comment that “we become watchful and sober” so that we aren’t easily carried away. Certainly that is very important.
What exactly were his not quite accurate arguments? He never mentioned anything about parental notification in his speech, that was my error.
It seems to me that the question that needs to be answered biblically is whether or not abortion is murder.
If it is murder then America has a lot of blood on her hands. If not then we are being sidetracked by an uncritical issue. What do you think?
Thanks for getting to the heart of the issue Sean.
Some of us were taught by the Way Ministry that abortion was not murder. Texts were used to “prove” this which said, in the Law, causing a woman to lose an unborn child was punished as a loss of property and not murder.
I no longer agree with this reasoning. To me there is a difference between someone else causing an accident that results in the loss of a child, and the woman herself making a decision to end the pregnancy.
I believe life begins in the seed, when the egg is fertilized.
Hi Joyce,
“I believe life begins in the seed, when the egg is fertilized.”
What does this mean for the use of contraceptives since, for example, the IUD doesn’t prevent fertilization but does prevent implantation? The pill (depending on the type) can sometimes work this way as well. It’s a very complex issue.
Karen, you bring up good points, but these do not necessarily reflect on the issue at hand. Your question regards how do we proceed now that we have decide that abortion is wrong. I’m not sure that’s what you are saying though. What is your biblical understanding of abortion? Is it murder? Is the unborn baby alive? These are the first questions we need to answer before proceeding to the complicated issues of birth control.
Scripture does not specifically address this issue in a precise manner (i.e. “thou shalt not kill an unborn baby”.) We have to break this down some, make some judgment calls, and look at some of the scientific findings as well. This is certainly an emotionally charged topic (and rightfully so…life and death is at stake). For brevity’s sake we’ll just look at what the Bible says and perhaps we can cover what science tells us later.
The murder by definition is taking the life of another human being. So the question then becomes, when exactly is the conceived baby considered human? Again, there isn’t a specific verse that says “life starts at conception and the life that starts there is human.” At the same time, there are no verses that specifically say a conceived thing isn’t human until it is born. However, we can logically conclude from certain verses that there isn’t much (or any) distinction made between an unborn child and a baby.
In these verses we see that the Lord “formed” both David and Jeremiah in the womb. There isn’t an indication of when life specifically began but there also isn’t a distinction between the person of David and what was being “woven” in his mother’s womb.
John the Baptist was certainly an amazing prophet…he was filled with the Holy Spirit while in the womb!
The language here “conceived a son” is very telling as to the “humanness” of John.
This is John the Baptist again, and there is no distinction made between the pre-born child and a baby.
Here is another example of a prenatal fetus (in this case Jesus) being called a child.
So I believe we can reasonably conclude from this very plain language that the fetus that is growing in the womb of a woman is human, alive, and God knows about it. In light of this, we as Christians should do all that we can, according to the ethics of the Kingdom, to protect the lives of these unborn children.
We can first look at the hideous practice of partial birth abortions, if this isn”t repulsive to God then I dont know what is . Some people are so deranged to think that this is OK. Their thinking is so far from God that they can even accept such a barbaric procedure under the cloak of “choice”. I am amazed that these people even exist , I work with them and I talk to them via surveys that I do. They sacrifice these children so they can practice their own style of idolatry. This may seem to be an extreme, but it is good to start here. Can we learn any thing from this extreme? Does it make what we are talking about any clearer?
Matt what you have just said seems very very clear. Is their room for disagreement?
Could this be a rationale for voting?
Dear Matt,
a few more thoughts to consider …
You write above: “The murder by definition is taking the life of another human being.” By your definition, are we to consider those promoting and executing a death penalty to be murderers … ?! ?! ?! ? or does the definition perhaps need some correction?
That speaker - from what I glean from your report - intentionally “defined” terrorism and abortion by the same terms => “is, at its core, the blatant disregard for killing of innocent lives to promote a way of life” Is such linking or “equalizing” correct? or are perhaps these “definitions” intentionally and purposely “twinked” to produce a desired, but nevertheless inaccurate and false impression?
Is, for example, the aspect of “taking innocent life” even such a core characteristic of “terrorism”, seeing that the same can happen in natural disasters, accidents, etc? What about “to promote a way of life”? Is abortion designed - at its core - to promote “a way of life” ??? Who is advocating abortion as a way or a part of a way of life?
Opponents of abortion often advocate that things should go (no matter what medical indications may be) “their natural way” … do those same folks also promote the natural way (despite any medical indications) when the time for birth comes and forbid c-sections leaving mother and baby to the chance of losing their innocent life? If not, why are they so inconsistent with their “leave it to its natural way”?
Just to clarify: I am not a terrorist nor an abortionist … I would like to promote being watchful and sober and to take a good step back, to try and leave any pre-conceived theologies out of the picture, to try and put all positions regarding an issue under examination (and not just those, one already pre-condemns), to not be bound by a group’s beliefs, in order to determine what the Scriptures do teach on a matter and to then determine how such applies to that life’s situation which needs consideration and a decision.
Cheers,
Wolfgang
Wolfgang,
From Merriam-Webster’s dictionary, murder’s first definition is “the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought”.
Not that I would advocate that job or want to have it, but God gave Noah a few guidelines that I don’t think went out with the Law of Moses.
I think he was getting at the core motivation for the majority of terrorism and abortion. And his point wasn’t that terrorism is so bad and we have to fight against it, his point was we are doing the same thing right here in the US and we need to pull the beam out of our own eye before plucking the mote out of someone else’s. Here are some statistics on abortion:
http://www.abortionno.org/Resources/fastfacts.html
The one I’d like to highlight is that 93% of abortions are performed in the US for social reasons (i.e. the baby is inconvenient or unwanted). 6% occur because of health problems with either the mother or the child, and 1% occur due to rape or incest. So in the vast majority of these cases the reason is convenience/lifestyle. And in terms of “promoting a way of life”…there are many organizations out there advocating abortion, Planned Parenthood being the most visible I’d say.
Terrorists take innocent life on purpose. People die all the time due to natural disasters and accidents. Do you think they died because someone “set off” a natural disaster?
I don’t know, I can’t speak for them. But what you are saying has “tweaked” the definition of murder based on how I presented it originally. There is a HUGE difference between discarding the life of an unwanted/inconvenient child and performing a C section in order to SAVE them or attributing deaths due to accidents or natural disasters.
Sean,
I do think abortion is murder…at a certain point. My question about contraception was an effort to figure out when that “point” occurs. If it’s at conception as opposed to at implantation, then that might determine which sort of contraceptives one uses.
Great dialog eveyone! Matt, I admire your courage to approach this subject!
Abortion has been a silent issue for many of us - meaning it has not been openly addressed, although many of our Christian brethren worldwide have stepped up to the plate and been speaking up for years.
Like some of us, I had once been led to believe that abortion was not such a big deal, and that it certainly wasn’t murder- as Joyce mentions in #6. I no longer agree. Abortion seems distasteful to me, at the least, and heinous at the worst, if, indeed, it is in the same league with murder! I am beginnning to think that the latter is indeed the case.
I think you really have to twist the scriptures to come up with any kind of conclusion that abortion (because the baby is unwanted or inconvenient) is not something that God hates.
I don’t have the scriptural answers for all of the questions raised on this issue, but I do wish to know, because America may have a really big problem on its hands. Thanks everyone for sharing your insights.
Rich
Hi Sean, Karen, Rich and others
Sean mentioned above in reply to Karen: “What is your biblical understanding of abortion? Is it murder? Is the unborn baby alive?”
These are some good questions …
Thus far, I do not remember and I am not aware of any biblical record where an abortion — that is, “an intentional (caused by “outside” influence) termination of a pregnancy”) — is mentioned and from which we could receive some immediate insights into how the matter is viewed from God’s perspective. Someone mentioned a record from the OT about a woman having a misscarriage due to outside influence, but those verses do not seem to be a reference to what we regard as “abortion” here … or?
In order to determine whether or not an abortion is biblically speaking (I don’t care about any country’s laws for our considerations, seeing that we are concerned with wanting to be right in the sight of God, rather than a particular country’s government) “murder”, would we not have to first determine what the Bible calls “murder”? Once that is established, would we then not have to determine whether an abortion fulfills these biblical stipulations/requirements as a “murder?
I would think that involved in this determination would be questions as: From when is a fetus biblically regarded “a living human being” (”man” as “a living soul”)? What is the motive / intention of an abortion?
Instead of being emotionally charged up by such prep-talk comparisons as done by this speaker and/or other either anti-abortion or pro-abortion advocators, I would suggest that it is vital to leave one’s own current feelings out of the picture and “in cold blood and clear head” (as much as possible) evaluate what the Scriptures do have to say in answer to such questions as those mentioned here …
IF we want to already start our search from our currently held belief, we may as well save ourselves and everybody else the time and effort and say “I believe so and so and am not going to change anything anyways no matter what the Bible says, because I am convinced that what I now believe is what the Bible says! ” IF we want to learn what the Scriptures say, we better be willing to learn and possibly change what we currently believe.
I’d appreciate biblical insights on these questions and possible answers.
Cheers,
Wolfgang
Hi Wofgang,
The verses that changed my thinking on the matter were the following:
Isaiah 44:2 Thus says the LORD who made you
And formed you from the womb, who will help you….
44:24 Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, “I, the LORD, am the maker of all things….
Psalm 139:13 For You formed my inward parts;
You wove me in my mother’s womb.
It’s that last one that really got to me, along with having children of my own.
Dear Karen,
do these verses mean that “you” - the person, as an independantly on their own living being (a living soul) - are already a person in your mother’s womb? Or do these verses mean, that “you” - the now living human being - were known to God and sort of like part of God’s plan for you already from before the time that you actually then began to do those things mentioned which God had in mind for “you”?
I would say it should be obvious that God is not literally busy with “forming you from the womb” nor is He literally “weaving a human person in a woman’s womb” … is He? Therefore, the language used in these verses is obviously figurative, and the question now is: What is the point being emphasized by these statements? Is the purpose and emphasis of this use of language to show that a person is already a person in the same way before they are even born as they are then later on after being born? Is the purpose and emphasis to declare that God “all along had a plan and a hand in the person’s life” in His foreknowledge and all-encompassing knowledge and wisdom? Is the purpose perhaps something else and none of these two possibilities? My current understanding gathered from the context of those passages tends toward the statements making the point that the “you” was part of God’s plan all along …
For further consideration: When we compare the process of pro-creation in living beings and humans in particular, from what point on do we consider having “a mother and a child”? When and how long do we speak of “a pregnant woman” (we perceive ONE human being who is in a special circumstances) and when do we speak of “a mother and a child” (we perceive TWO human beings)?
“To cool some folks’ jets” … as I mentioned before, I am trying to get us to think about the facts concering the case — WITHOUT pre-determined beliefs and or what others or I myself may have been taught in the past. I am NOT trying “to excuse” abortions, I am not trying “to condemn” abortions, I am trying to ask questions which hopefully will be helpful to consider the biblical evidence correctly and THEN come to a position where each can make up their own mind as to what they want to believe in this matter.
Cheers,
Wolfgang
Wolfgang, a quick statement.
The definition of pregnant
pregnant |ˈpregnənt| adjective 1 (of a woman or female animal) having a child or young developing in the uterus : a pregnant woman | she was heavily pregnant with her second child. • having been in such a condition for a specified time
You dont need to clarify that there is a second person because that would be redundant withen the language.
A biblical way of saying pregnant is: with child
Gen 16:11, 19:36, 38:24-25, 2 Kings 8:12, 15:16, Isaiah 7:14, Jeremiah 31:8, Matt 1:18,23, luke 2:5, 19:44, 1 Thessalonians 5:3, Revelation 12:2.
Genesis 25:22
But the children struggled together within her; and she said, “If it is so, why then am I this way?” So she went to inquire of the LORD.
To my knowage there is no difference between the word child used in this context or any other context. Please clarify if however I am wrong.
Wolfgang, If the fetus is not a child does it follow then that it is ok to abort it? Third trimester abortions , partial birth abortions are disgusting acts from depraved minds that my God who is holy holy could not accept as acceptable practices. Back up-when is it acceptable? When do you feel abortion is acceptable to God?
Does God have to tell us every thing in order for us to figure out that some things are wrong. Does he have to go down the list of every presently evil act in order to convince us that we better not do it. He does say murder . Why is it necessary to try to eliminate abortions from the category of killing. What possible profit is in this? Doesn”t he warn us about doing this?Using language to convince others of things contrary to God,
Hi Wolfgang,
“do these verses mean that “you” - the person, as an independantly on their own living being (a living soul) - are already a person in your mother’s womb?”
I think they do. But if you disagree then the question becomes, as Pat touches on: is there a point, biologically speaking, before which a baby is not yet human?
“When and how long do we speak of “a pregnant woman” (we perceive ONE human being who is in a special circumstances) and when do we speak of “a mother and a child” (we perceive TWO human beings)?”
Having been a pregnant woman (twice) I can assure you that my husband and I both thought of me as a mother with a child the moment we knew I was pregnant.
The following is from this month’s issue of The Atlantic, in an article by Caitlin Flanagan, who is pro-choice:
“My sympathy for the beliefs of people who oppose abortion is enormous, and it grows almost by the day. An ultrasound image taken surprisingly early in pregnancy can stop me in my tracks. In it is much more than I want to know about the tiny creature whose destruction we have legalized: a beating heart, a human face, functioning kidneys, two waving hands that seem not too far away from being able to grasp and shake a rattle. One of the newest types of prenatal imaging, the three-dimensional sonogram—which is so fully realized that happily pregnant women spend a hundred dollars to have their babies’ first “photograph” taken—is frankly terrifying when examined in the context of the abortion debate. The demands pro-life advocates make of pregnant women are modest: All they want is a little bit of time. All they are asking, in a societal climate in which out-of-wedlock pregnancy is without stigma, is that pregnant women give the tiny bodies growing inside of them a few months, until the little creatures are large enough to be on their way, to loving homes.
These sonogram images lay claim to the most powerful emotion I have ever known: maternal instinct. Mothers are charged with protecting the vulnerable and the weak among us, and most of all, taking care of babies—the tiniest and neediest—first.”
From what I understand scripture never differentiates between a child in the womb and a child who has been born (see comments 9, 17 & 19). So therefore a child is human from conception according to the scriptures. Jesus gave us clear instructions on how our behavior is to be towards all humans. He told us to love our neighbor (Mt 19:19, 22:39, Mk 12:31, Lk 10:37, etc) and to love our enemies (Mt 5:44, Lk 6:27 & 35, etc). Terminating someone’s life is not an act of love. What we call it - abortion or murder - doesn’t change that.
Kassia Thank you well said
Dear John Paul,
thank you for your note and information. You mentioned “the” definition of “pregnant”, but after reading it, I would think that, as such, this definition (apparently not a Bible definition, or?) is not providing any detail info in either direction of “pro-” or “anti-”abortion. The various scriptures you mention are more helpful in that they use the same term “child” in reference to a pregnant woman or contexts after birth, when the child is indeed a separate independently living human being.
The question to consider then might be: Does this use of the same term mean that the author regards the not born child as a living human being in the same way he regards a born child as a human being? I mention this, because there is also a scripture where the not yet born Messiah is called “a thing” (cp. Lk 1:35 - Gabriel’s words to Mary). In light of that one, do the other verses use the term “child” because they sort of “look ahead” and speak of “the thing” as “the child” (sort of like a person might look at the architect’s plans and some walls going up as “a house” even though it is not yet “the house”? ), and how does this have bearing on the abortion question?
Cheers,
Wolfgang
Dear Pat,
you wrote above in #20 the following: “If the fetus is not a child does it follow then that it is ok to abort it?”
I would say that this factor alone - in and of itself - does not answer that question. It may answer the question whether or not abortion is biblically “murder”, but we should still note, that there are biblically “killing” which are not muder and yet still are wrong.
You further mentioned: “Third trimester abortions , partial birth abortions are disgusting acts from depraved minds that my God who is holy holy could not accept as acceptable practices. Back up-when is it acceptable? When do you feel abortion is acceptable to God?”
What I (or you) may find acceptable or non-acceptable is NOT the question, or are we now the measure for truth? I mentioned before, that I do think that our ideas and beliefs ought to better be kept out of the picture while trying to study the Scriptures to learn if they address the matter and what they have to say about it.
Cheers,
Wolfgang
Dear Pat,
you write in #21 above: “Does God have to tell us every thing in order for us to figure out that some things are wrong. Does he have to go down the list of every presently evil act in order to convince us that we better not do it.”
I do think that the Scriptures do contain principles from which we are to conclude things and determine right or wrong in situations which are not necessarily mentioned.
You then continue: “He does say murder.”
Sure, God’s word lists murder and describes various characteristics to determine when a killing is murder and when it is not … The question we are endeavouring to answer is: “Does God’s Word teach that abortion is murder?”
You continue: “Why is it necessary to try to eliminate abortions from the category of killing.”
Who tries to eliminate abortions from killing? I thought we were in the process of considering the Scriptures to determine the facts concering the case? You seem to say “God mentions murder”, therefore “abortion is murder” … but please note: According to the Scriptures, not all killing is murder, is it?
You then write: “What possible profit is in this? Doesn”t he warn us about doing this? Using language to convince others of things contrary to God”
I would say that the question concering the profit is a very important point … is there a profit in an abortion? I would think that this point falls into the category of considering “motive” which I mentioned in my earlier comment concerning determining whether or not an abortion may be “murder”. From the rather little I have read, and the few situations where I have known couples being advised to consider an abortion by medical specialists, I would say that not all abortions are decided upon for “selfish or evil reasons” … and thus I would also not think it to be right to categorically call all folks who may be involved in an abortion murderers.
Cheers,
Wolfgang
In Luke 1.35 the word “thing” (kjv) or “child” (nasb) is not really there. It reads “and the holy which has been begotten shall be called son of God.” The word begotten is neuter but this is not an indication that we are talking about a thing but rather because the word for child (tekton) is also neuter. Perhaps Alexandra Burns could help clarify this issue? Below are some different translations of this verse:
Dear Karen,
you write above in #22: “I think they do. But if you disagree then the question becomes, as Pat touches on: is there a point, biologically speaking, before which a baby is not yet human?”
I would say that, Yes, this is definitely a question (I think Sean already mentioned that as well earlier) … If conception is that point, then a number of contraceptive methods which do not prohibit conception but “abort” the fertilized egg by prohibiting it to settle in the womb are — form that perspective — no different than an abortion of a fetus at a later time. Do the various pro- or anti-abortion camps even consider this point?
You then commented: “Having been a pregnant woman (twice) I can assure you that my husband and I both thought of me as a mother with a child the moment we knew I was pregnant.” Yes, I know of such thoughts … have held them myself while my wife was pregant, BUT such thoughts did not change the fact that there was only one human person and not two persons standing in front of me … I would not want to make my personal thoughts or feelings the measure for truth (cp my earlier comment in my reply to Pat’s comment)
Cheers,
Wolfgang
Hi Wolfgang,
“Do the various pro- or anti-abortion camps even consider this point?”
The Catholic church certainly does, and I know there are now quite a few Protestants who are opposed to birth control for the same reason.
“I would not want to make my personal thoughts or feelings the measure for truth”
No, but this is such a personal issue that these feelings will come up no matter what, especially when talking to women.
Happy Easter!
My gut reaction to you Wolfgang is that if you cant understand what I am trying to say then we could arguer discuss all day long and never come up with a answer that will satisfy you, Child not a child, human not human ( and if its not human then what is it), A fetus can be in the womb until 8 months or later and some are of the opinion that aborting it is no big thing that it is not sin because it is still attached to the women, How silly . Ask God for wisdom he does say we will receive it if we ask. When they pull the fetus out partially and suck its brain out then some how you want to tell me that it may be ok because you cant find a scripture reference. Picture a first century christian observing such things. Do you think they would look for a bible verse or do you think they would be appalled. Do you think they may feel this was similar to some pagan practices? But wait I know, not my opinion not yours is whats important. When something goes against. the nature that God has given me the characteristics that he wants me to be gentle, kind etc. I better stand up and take notice.
I think the real question is when does life begin. Does it begin at first breath (Gen 2.7) at conception (Luke 1.35) or somewhere in between (like when the heart starts beating)? Also, if we decide that life begins at conception then we should definitely begin talking about what Karen had mentioned earlier regarding birth control. Thoughts anyone?
Emotions aside, life begins @ conception because that is the way God chose to start life. We all started at conception, do we not consider ourselves human? If not than what grows in a women for 9 months? Blood cells begin at 17 days and a heart as early as 18 days. This heart which begins as a simple tube starts regular pulsations at 24 days, which, in about one week, smooth into a rhythmic contraction and expansion. By the end of the 20th day the foundation of the child’s brain, spinal cord and entire nervous system will have been established. By the 6th week after conception this system will have developed so well that it is controlling movements of the baby’s muscles. By the 33rd day the cerebral cortex, that part of the central nervous system that governs motor activity as well as intellect may be seen. Sounds human to me. An argument is that aside from being in the mother’s womb the child could not survive, my 1-year-old could not survive now if it was not for my care. Her life started at conception. I can’t believe that as Christians that this is in any way a debatable subject. If what is in the women’s womb is not la human than why does her soul grieve after an abortion, why does she mourn? Your soul does not grieve the loss of something that is not living.
Thought on birth control as christians we should choose our birth control wisely, if it prevents conception fine the others should be avoided.
Wolfgang, the Point of my listing of the definition was in responce to what you said in comment #18 “When and how long do we speak of “a pregnant woman” (we perceive ONE human being who is in a special circumstances) and when do we speak of “a mother and a child” (we perceive TWO human beings)?”
the definition shows how the being with child is implied.
In answer to your House analogy (besides the very thorough responce that sean gave in regards to that particular scripture) If someone came in and destroyed an unfinished house, i would say that they destroyed my house. not my construction site.
I think the answer to this (abortion) question is quite simple. We looked at times when women in the bible are pregnant and have come to the understanding that there was a child there.
No preconseved ideas.
I think to argue otherwise you would have to read things into certain texts.
Thank you for sharpening us on this subject.
~God Bless
JP
Dear Sean,
thanks for pointing out the point about the “thing / child” in Lk 1:35 … as basically all the translations you mention indicate, they refer to “the child that WILL BE BORN” … that is, AFTER the birth the child was THE SON OF GOD (not prior to the birth= … or ?
I also do think that your further comment (# 33) has impact on the considerations. I would however not word it “when does life begin?” but rather “when is a human a living soul?” I don’t think there is or has been (even in The Way Int’l’s teaching which someone mentioned) the claim that there is no life until birth … the question is: From when on is man “a living soul” or “a living human being”?
I don’t know of anyone who would say that the fetus has no life or is not alive prior to birth (unless in such cases when the fetus has died). The answer to that question about “when a living soul?” seems also obvious: Man is not an independently breathing human being - a living soul - until after birth …
What would be your thoughts on abortions decided upon because of life threatening circumstances to the mother-to-be? In other words, are there considerations regarding to “motive” which would have any impact on the matter at all? or is all abortion to be considered equally?
Cheers,
Wolfgang
Dear Karen,
thank you for your comment … I know and can see how emotioanlly charged up comments can come up.
Btw, we here in Germany enjoy a second holiday today for Easter …
Cheers,
Wolfgang
Dear John Paul,
thank you for your note of clarification about the definition … as I mentioned before, even that definition does not speak of a pregnant woman as two individual human beings, but of a woman “with child”
As for my analogy with “the house”, indeed, I agree with you that we would want to think that our house got destroyed, but in reality it was only the construction site … no matter how bad I would feel or how angry I would be about that. As for the facts of the case, try getting the $800.000 (value of completed house) from the insurance company …
As for your understanding and your look at the Bible with references where women were pregnant … I do not think that it is as simple as you would like to make it. Althought the word “child” is used, the verses do NOT necessarily teach that a child (an independently living and breathing human being, as the Bible describes man as a living soul) is already living inside a woman. The use of the word “child” is often in view of the “to be born child” being referred to … As for reading into the texts, the question is: Who is reading into the text ? (isn’t that always sort of a question when trying to learn what the Scriptures [or any text, for that matter] say and teach?)
I also appreciate yours and others’ comments that are causing more careful consideration of matters and as such help “sharpen us on this subject”.
Cheers,
Wolfgang
Dear Terri C Thank you for your comments, and for sharing about the rather amazing early developments of the human fetus. While it may be interesting and important for some whether the fetus is human or biblically considered to be a child, so that it can be protected by Gods prohibitions, I personally rather not go there, God does seem to refer to the fetus as a child and then in others as a “thing”. The more important question is should Christians have abortions? This would be so helpful for each other. We are suppose to be helping each other to be pleasing to God and live a holy life. Some people after reading this blog may think “well this is so controversial that I can have a abortion” Do we really want this? Are there ever any reasons why abortions could be acceptable? By the way as for the last question I really do not know. If life is a trial of our faith it follows that there may be some hard issues to face. I agree life begins at conception because that is how God designed it. Does that life deseve protection, Any one can goggle anti abortion and find all sorts of statistics regarding when women have abortions and why. A large number use abortions as a birth control method , do you think God cares about that , or is that a non issue to God? Thanks Pat
Patti,
I think the stat is 93% get abortions because the child is unwanted or inconvenient. 1% is for incest & rape. and 6% is for threat to life of mother. I think in the case where the mother and the child will die, abortions should be considered an option. In the case of rape/incest I don’t think that because an atrocious thing has happened to the mother that the child (who has done no right or wrong yet) should be killed (adoption is always an option). However, the simple fact of the matter is that over 90% of the time none of these “difficult issues” arise. In the vast majority abortions are occuring because they are convenient!
Regarding the question about Christians getting abortions, Protestants obtain 37.4% of all abortions in the U.S.; Catholic women account for 31.3%, Jewish women account for 1.3%, and women with no religious affiliation obtain 23.7% of all abortions. 18% of all abortions are performed on women who identify themselves as “Born-again/Evangelical”. This means that 68.7% of abortions in the US are being done by “Christians”!!!
click here to see the stats page
Wolfgang,
I find your distinction between being alive and being a living soul hard to understand. One can be alive and not a living soul? I agree that with Adam he became a living soul when God breathed into him the breath of life. However, this is not the way that the rest of us got our start. If the life is in the blood, then perhaps we become living souls at an earlier stage when we inherit the spark of life from our mothers in the womb.
Wolfgang,
You have made a destinction between the Child and the Child to be born that is not there in the text at all. If there are Scriptures that make that destinction please direct me towards them. I am unaware of such scripture. So yes I really do think it can be that simple.
People on resproators or have been administered CPR are not independently breathing. Are they not living souls/alve at that time?
With the house analogy, the destroyer of the house will still have to be punished. They have commited a crime and have put the owner of the property behind schedule. They have made arangments to move into that house withen a certain time and not that has been destroyed. Complete finantial restituion is in order, and.. there will be with no doubt civil punishment for this crime. Destruction of property. N doubt, the same charges that they would get for destroying a completed house. Overall I think the analogy is flawed because now we start discussing finatial restitution and i do not think that we can apply that in the case of murder.
~JP
Pat,
We agree that life starts at conception than it does deserve protection. I personally see no reason why abortion would be ok with God. I have heard reasons that in my past would have swayed my decision, rape, deformities, and mother’s health at risk. These are horrible things but still I don’t think our Holy God is “pro choice” Most abortions are not done for these reasons but out of pure selfness.
The number Sean posted of abortions being done by supposed Christians is alarming. Does anyone have any numbers on abortions done on married women? I would think the majority is on unmarried women, if they were following God’s law would not have an “unwanted pregnancy” Which is why if 68.7% of Christian’s need to hear how God feels about fornication.
We live in a world that Satan runs, abortion was not created by God. I would not personally stand outside Planned Parenthood to protest abortion because that is not the heart of the problem. It is Sin, and until that person hears the true gospel of the kingdom then they can not know what grieves the heart of God.
Sean thanks for the statistics . You know what is really sad? There are women who believed what some christian groups have taught about the , breath of life and then a living soul rationale and have had abortions thinking it was ok. We need to be very clear when we speak about these things because some where someone may take what is said. believe it and walk out on it. love Patty
Here are some CDC statistics from the 1990’s:
The abortion rate dropped by about 25 percent for both married and unmarried women through the 1990s;
The birth rate for unmarried women is about half the rate of married women;
The abortion rate for unmarried women is over four times higher than that of married women;
Looking at pregnancies among married women, three out of four ended in a live birth in 1999, and 7 percent ended in abortion;
Among unmarried women about half the pregnancies ended in a live birth while about 40 percent ended in abortion.
And these are from the National Abortion Foundation:
Women between the ages of 15 and 19 account for about 19% of all abortions; women 20 to 24 account for another 33%; and about 25% of abortions are obtained by women who are 30 or older. Calculating abortion rates, older teenagers and young adults have the highest abortion rates, while women younger than 15 and older than 35 have the lowest.
Most women getting abortions (83%) are unmarried; 67% have never married, and 16% are separated, divorced, or widowed. Married women are significantly less likely than unmarried women to resolve unintended pregnancies through abortion.
Women who obtain abortions represent every religious affiliation. 13% of abortion patients describe themselves as born-again or Evangelical Christians; while 22% of U.S. women are Catholic, 27% of abortion patients say they are Catholics.