Did Jesus Pre-exist?
January 10th, 2008 by Sean
Recently someone named Randy dropped this comment under the page “Tell Us How We Are Doing!”
Having found restoration theology in the past year and having the trinity drummed into me all my life, it is a joy to find the “truth” being taught and verified by this website.
Yet, and I say that, casually, how do I come to believe the teaching that Jesus wasn’t with God before he came to earth or born of the virgin Mary.
John 17: 20-24 reads, “That all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us that the world may believe that you have SENT me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one. I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world now that you SENT me and have loved them even as you have loved me. ………….the glory you have given me because you loved me BEFORE THE CREATION OF THE WORLD.
If someone can comment on those verses and how they seem to run contrary to the teaching that Jesus’ beginning was only at his birth, I would really love to hear those thoughts.
Thanks
JohnO replied
Hey Randy,Great to have you here! I think one of the biggest mistakes that we modern Christians make is to ignore or forget the Jewish backdrop.
Judaism at the time believes that three thing were existed before the creation: the Torah, the Messiah, the Temple (if I’m remembering the third correctly?). When they say this, they don’t precisely mean the same thing we would naturally talk about. They mean that these three things exist in the mind of God - as his plan - what he is going to do in the world.
I’m confident that the more we know and understand about Judaism and the primary source (in my view, Lazarus) behind the gospel of John - the more Jewish, less Gnostic, and ultimately, more understandable it will be.
Since comments made on the “Tell Us How We Are Doing!” page do not appear on our “big board” of the seven most recent comments, I thought it would be beneficial to move this discussion to this part of the blog. I have a couple of comments I’d like to add and then whoever else wants to contribute, please do so by commenting on this post.
Sean’s comment
Randy,It is indeed a pleasure to hear from you and it is tremendously exciting to know that you have grasped the central message of Jesus about the coming kingdom. May I encourage you to build your theology of Jesus’ origin in the following order? (1) What does the OT say with regard to prophecies about who/what the Messiah would be? (2) What do Matthew, Mark, and Luke say with regard to when the Messiah began? (3) Now that we have that underpinning of some 42 books of the Bible, we can approach the Gospel of John and ask how to work this all together (harmonize it).
The OT is clear that the son/Messiah does not exist yet. Below are some prophecies that speak of him.
[Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her seed; He shall bruise you on the head, And you shall bruise him on the heel.” ]
The “one” is to be a descendant of the woman. A descendant is by definition one who comes into existence after the ancestor. Apparently, from the very beginning of this mess, God had plans to fix the problem through the seed of the woman (i.e. a solution from within the human biological chain).
[Isaiah 9:6 For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. ]
The child will be born/given. At the time of Isaiah 9 the language used to describe the Davidic Messiah is future tense. This is a prophecy of a child who will be born in the future (just like ch 7 and ch 8 prophesied about other children that would be born). If Jesus already existed we should expect different language here.
[Isaiah 11:1-3 1 Then a shoot will spring from the stem of Jesse, And a branch from his roots will bear fruit. 2 The Spirit of the LORD will rest on Him, The spirit of wisdom and understanding, The spirit of counsel and strength, The spirit of knowledge and the fear of the LORD. 3 And He will delight in the fear of the LORD, And He will not judge by what His eyes see, Nor make a decision by what His ears hear; ]
The shoot will spring means that a descendant of David (Jesse’s son) will be born some day. The whole idea of lineal descent is emphasized by the terms “shoot” and “branch” which are obviously tree metaphors. In other words, this person will come from the line of Jesse. If he already existed independent from the line of Jesse then he would come through but not out from the stump of Jesse.
[Psalm 2.7-8 7 “I will surely tell of the decree of the LORD: He said to Me, ‘You are My Son, Today I have begotten You. 8 ‘Ask of Me, and I will surely give the nations as Your inheritance, And the very ends of the earth as Your possession.]
This oracle does not include when this was to happen. The only information given is that on a certain day (i.e. “today”) God begets a son who is to rule the world (not just Israel). This means that the day before “this day” the son did not exist. Begotten means for a father to bring someone into existence. (Typically this occurs via the sexual union of a man and a woman but obviously with Jesus a miracle occurred in which Mary remained a virgin though she had conceived.)
[1 Chronicles 17:11-14 11 “When your days are fulfilled that you must go to be with your fathers, that I will set up one of your descendants after you, who will be of your sons; and I will establish his kingdom. 12 “He shall build for Me a house, and I will establish his throne forever. 13 “I will be his father and he shall be My son; and I will not take My lovingkindness away from him, as I took it from him who was before you. 14 “But I will settle him in My house and in My kingdom forever, and his throne shall be established forever.”‘” ]
Again, notice the future tense here. One day a descendant of David will be born and he will be chosen by God to rule on the throne of David forever. Was David thinking that an angel, a spirit, or God himself would metamorphose into a human, pose as a descendant, and fulfill this prophecy? Of course not! David is most likely thinking of Solomon (who we know didn’t end up being “the one”) or perhaps a distant descendant. What is clear is that one of David’s progeny will rule forever.
Now we proceed to look at Matthew, Mark, and Luke. Mark does not have any information about the birth of Jesus, so we will focus on the first couple of chapters in just Matthew and Luke.
[Matthew 1:15-16 15 Eliud was the father of Eleazar, Eleazar the father of Matthan, and Matthan the father of Jacob. 16 Jacob was the father of Joseph the husband of Mary, by whom Jesus was born, who is called the Messiah.]
It is essential we take into consideration the context that immediately precedes this verse. Matthew has just enumerated dozens of generations in genealogical fashion (like Genesis 5 or 11). Then at the end of this impressive list of descendants he gets to Jesus (Matthew 1.16). The point being made is that Jesus is a bona fide, lineal descendant of Abraham and David (cf. Matthew 1.1).
[Matthew 1:18 Now the birth (lit. origin) of Jesus Christ was as follows: when His mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child by the Holy Spirit. ]
The NASB says “birth” but the word used here is a bit stronger than that. It is the word “genesis” which means beginning or origin (like the first book of the Bible). So the origin of this Messiah (Christ = Messiah) is in the womb of the virgin Mary. The inescapable consequence of his origin being in Mary is that he did not literally exist prior to this (though of course Jesus existed notionally from the beginning–in the mind of God).
[Matthew 1:20-23 20 But when he had considered this, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife; for the Child who has been conceived (lit. begotten) in her is of the Holy Spirit. 21 “She will bear a Son; and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.” 22 Now all this took place to fulfill what was spoken by the Lord through the prophet: 23 “BEHOLD, THE VIRGIN SHALL BE WITH CHILD AND SHALL BEAR A SON, AND THEY SHALL CALL HIS NAME IMMANUEL,” which translated means, “GOD [IS] WITH US.”]
The first thing to note is that the word translated as “conceived” in verse 20 is really the word “begotten” which is important because it is the part the Father does in making the child. In other words, we find here in Matthew 1.20 the fulfillment of the oracle in Psalm 2.7: one day the Father will beget a child who will rule the world. Remember, to beget is what the Father does to bring someone into existence. The next thing to note is that the angel of the Lord tells Joseph that the birth of Jesus is the fulfillment of the prophecy that one day a virgin shall bear a son. In other words, we are being told that the future tense language used in the OT is in fact fulfilled in Joseph’s time through the miraculous begetting and subsequent birth of this son. All of this causes one to think of a monarchical story of a promised heir of royal blood who will rule the world. Jesus is that heir. The twist that the NT adds is not that he always existed and “transmutated” into a human, but that this child was actually miraculously begotten without a human father, making God his literal (i.e. biological?) Father.
[Luke 1:31-35 31 “And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall name Him Jesus. 32 “He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David; 33 and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end.” 34 Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I am a virgin?” 35 The angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God.]
Two points here: (1) Gabriel tells Mary that she will conceive, she will bear a son, and he will be great. The clear implication of this language is that Jesus did not already exist, but that he was about to be born. Furthermore, if he did exist prior to his birth (I think my mental eyes just crossed) then he was not great. Gabriel says that “he will be great,” which means if he already existed he was not great, or else the angel should have said, “he is great” or “he will remain being great” or something to that affect. (2) The precise reason given for why the child is called the “son of God” is NOT because he always existed, it is NOT because he is the 2nd member of the Trinity, it is NOT because he shares that divine substance (ousia) with the Father. No! He is the “son of God” because of the miracle in the womb of Mary. This is the precise reason why he is God’s son. This is so simple, yet so overlooked–Jesus is the son of God because God begot him! How did God do it? The holy spirit, God’s creative presence (cf. Genesis 1.2 with spirit hovering over the chaotic waters) overshadowed Mary and the result was an impregnated womb, the beginning of a human being.
So from all of this evidence (and there’s more, check out this article or this one to look into this further) it is absolutely clear that Jesus began at birth (after all that is what it means to be a human). So now we come to the Gospel of John and we are suddenly confronted with a lot of language which seems to say the opposite of what has preceded in the Bible. How do we make sense of this? There are two options. (1) Harmonize John with the rest of the Bible or (2) Overturn the previous books in favor of hypothesis that to John was revealed “secret” information about the “true” origin of Jesus. It is our contention that the former is preferable. So, what does it mean when we find sayings about Jesus coming from heaven, being sent by the Father, or having things (glory, love, etc.) with God before the foundation of the world? I will take each of these in turn.
- Jesus came down from heaven. All good things come down from heaven (James 1.17). Saying something came down from heaven can mean it fell from the sky, or it could mean that this person, idea, event, etc., was in God’s plan (in heaven) and then it came to pass on earth. Johannes Weiss explains this well when he says, “We have to bear in mind that for the Israelites, and likewise for Jesus, there existed a twofold world, and thus also a twofold occurrence of events. The world of men and history is only the lower floor of the world’s structure. The world of the angels and spirits is erected above that. Both parts make up the world (1 Cor. 4:9). Moreover, what happens on earth has its exact parallel in heaven. All history is only the consequence, effect, or parallel copy of heavenly events. Thus an event which on earth is only just beginning to take place may not merely be already determined, but even already enacted in heaven” (Jesus’ Proclamation of the Kingdom pg. 74). Although, I certainly don’t believe that EVERY single event on earth occurs because it has been determined in heaven first, I do most certainly believe that CERTAIN events (i.e. prophesies, like about the coming of the Messiah, etc.) are already determined by God in heaven and they will come down to earth in the fullness of time.
- The second category are the times in John’s Gospel that it says Jesus was sent (around 40 times). But, does “sent” mean that Jesus was in heaven with God and then one day God sent him to earth to save us? I would say that there is another sense the word “sent” can have that is more harmonious with what we have already seen. Isaiah was sent (Isaiah 6). What does this mean? He was commissioned by God, he was given a mission by God to do something. Furthermore, John the Baptist was sent. “There came a man sent from God, whose name was John” (John 1:6). This is the same sort of language used of Jesus. “The Father sent me,” etc. Was John in heaven? He was sent from God! Thus, we conclude that being sent from God need not imply pre-existence. It may just mean that someone was commissioned by God.
- The third idea found in John is that Jesus “has” things with God before he was born (or even before the foundation of the world). There is one question we need to answer before we come to understand this: did Jesus literally exist before the foundation of the world? If the answer is “yes” then we would be justified and it would be quite natural to say that Jesus literally had glory with (John 17.5) or experienced love from (John 17.24) the Father before his birth. However, if it is our understanding from the 42 books that precede John that Jesus is in fact a genuine human who had a literal origin in his mother, though his Father was miraculously God, then we see these expressions in terms of predestination. In other words, when Jesus says “Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was” (John 17.5) he means that he had glory stored up with the Father (i.e. in God’s plan) and he is now asking for it. And, when Jesus says “you loved me before the foundation of the world” he means that God has always loved his son, even before he existed. This does not mean that Jesus experienced the love before he existed, but that God still expressed his love, perhaps by ordering history in such a way that all things would culminate in his son in much the same way expectant parents make preparations before their child is born. Another example of this type of thinking may be helpful. “All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world” (Revelation 13.8). Was the Lamb literally killed from the beginning of the world? No! Though in the counsels of God he was, so we can speak of it, projecting the event into the past, as having already been done–from the beginning–though everyone understands that this action (the slaying of the Lamb) did not actually take place until ad 30 or so.
Randy, hopefully these comments will be helpful to you. If you would like to pursue more resources on this subject we have pulled together dozens of mp3s, articles, and video files on the subject of God is one, from a non-trinitarian perspective, on this site. Furthermore, I would encourage you to watch The Human Jesus documentary (click here).
grace & peace,
Sean
If anyone would like to add comments please do so.
Thank you, Sean, for taking the time to go into a very detailed response to my question. Truthfully, I thought my question would get lost in the cosmos of the internet. But alas, you and others have taken the time to voice their opinion to my question. Since asking the question, I have reread those verses you mentioned above and I had concluded perhaps Christ was with God from the beginning. Yet, after reading your outstanding comments, I no longer hold to that doctrine.
I will do as you suggested, listen to the mp3s and the other site you pointed out to me.
I looked on the internet for the beliefs of the Universalist Unitarians and find their doctrines very far from my beliefs as they seem to permit most any type of belief system into their church. Is that church the one this blog advocates? Or is it merely one of the Restoration Fellowship with a unitarian theology?
Again thanks for taking the time to comment. I have learned much and seek to learn more of the truth about the Kingdom of God available to those who believe Christ is the Son of God and the Savior of those who seek Him, accept Him, and more importantly, obey His words of life. There is one God and His Son, Jesus.
Randy,
Thank you for your kind words. If you have any further questions after listening to the mp3s, feel free to post them here.
For Jesus to be a human he must have origin in the womb of his mother. This is simply a matter of definition. The exciting part is that he did not have a human father, in fact, God was his Father through creative fiat. This makes room for the Adam Christology (Jesus as the second Adam cf. Rom 5.12-21; 1 Cor 15.20-23, 45-49). God has proposed to solve the original problem (Gen 3) from within creation (Gen 3.15: the descendant of the woman). Jesus is the new man. The one who got it right. The trail blazer for humanity. The one who we can follow right to the kingdom. If he is really an angel or God himself then it sort of cheapens the story.
We are not Unitarian Universalists. We start with the view that the Bible is true and then use our God given reason to understand what it teaches. We work in community and come to truth through prayer and discussion. The Unersalists used to be like this too, but then in the 19th century they became quite liberal. The mainstream churches start with the belief that the Bible is true and add to it their creeds or historic doctrinal statements. Thus, for most Christians, Bible study is a matter of confirming their creed. We are not administratively tied to Restoration Fellowship and Anthony Buzzard, though we share the same beliefs.
Hello Sean and all,
I am wondering how John 8:58 fits into the preexistence (or lack of) of Jesus? I see the verse two ways
a. I AM is referring back to Exodus 3:14 as a name of God the father
b. I AM is really just I existed prior to Abraham.
I am in a deep discussion on the topic and would appreciate anyones thoughts. Thanks for your time, John Hawkins
“56(AP) Your father Abraham(AQ) rejoiced(AR) that he would see my day.(AS) He saw it and was glad.” 57So the Jews said to him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?”[b] 58Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was,(AT) I am.” ”
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john%208:35-62;john%2017:4-5;rev%203:10-15;1%20cor%208;eph%204:1-10;&version=47;
In a court of law, if a man testifies that he does in fact exist today,
at this present time, and it is in fact what he has said, ………Is it
proof that he in fact did not exist prior?
I believe Jesus did testify that at the present time (as he was sharing the good news concerning himself) he did in fact exist (and not only exist but existed as one who did not just “seem to be somewhat” but really IS SOMEONE TO BE CONSIDERED) but in so
saying that, this does not mean he did not in fact exist as a spiritual
being in the heavenly realm at a time prior.
dear John Hawkins,
here is an article on the I am statement in John 8.58
http://kingdomready.org/blog/2007/10/03/is-jesus-the-i-am/
also, Victor has done a nice job in an mp3 teaching on this subject
http://kingdomready.org/topics/audio.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.highergroundonline.org%2Fgoodstuff%2Fteachings%2Fjohn8
“Let There Be Light”
“In The Beginning” The Creator(Our Father) said,
“Let There Be Light, and There Was Light”
“LIGHT Begets Light!”
“The Beginning of The Creation of GOD!”
And the revelation that The Messiah received of
The Creator and gave unto the apostle John bore
witness to The Truth that The Messiah, was
“The Beginning of the Creation of GOD(Our
Father, Creator of ALL)”! (Rev 1:1, 3:14)
And The Messiah bore witness to His Brethren
when He testified, “My GOD is your GOD and My
Father(Creator) is your Father(Creator).”(Jn 20:17)
The Messiah testified “I have sent My angel to
you with this testimony for the assemblies. I am
the root and the offspring of David. I am the bright,
Morning Star(Light)”! (Rev 22:16) ) Peter testified
“We have the more sure word of prophecy; and
you do well to take heed, as to a lamp shining in a
dark place, until the day dawns, and The Morning
Star(Light) arises in your hearts.”(2Pt 1:19) “But
you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood,
a holy nation, HIS own special people, that you
may proclaim the praises of HIM who called you
out of darkness into His marvelous Light.”(1Pt2:9)
And the evening(darkness) and The Morning
(Light) was the First Day.” (Gen 1:5)
“Let There Be Light”!
“The Beginning of The Creation of GOD”!
It is very important to both know and experience
The Messiah as He Is, Was and always Will Be,
and also to know the “glory He had with Our
Father” before He was born in “the likeness of
sinful flesh”. (John 17:5, Rom 8:3) For what The
Messiah Was and Is, Is that which He will always
Will Be.”The Only Begotten Son” of “Our Father”!
First, let me simply state that I do not believe the
“catholic” and “christian” theo’ry’logical doctrines
concerning “The Only True GOD, Father ALL”. For
they “image”ine a three-headed “god” they call
their “trinity”, or they declare their “christ” to be
their “god and father”, or they believe that The
Messiah was but an exalted messenger(angel)
or prophet.
John The Baptist testified, “And I saw, and bare
record that The Messiah is the Son of GOD(Our
Father).”(John 1:34) Peter testified, “You are The
Messiah, The Son of The Living GOD(Father of
ALL)”!(Matt 16:16) And the Ethiopian eunuch
testified, “I believe that The Messiah is The Son
of GOD(Our Father)”. (Acts 8:37) “Seeing then
that we have a great high priest, that is passed
into the Heavens, The Messiah, The Son of
GOD(Our Father), let us hold fast our profession.”
(Heb 4:14) “These things are written so that you
might believe that The Messiah is The Son of GOD
(Our Father)”. (John 20:31) The Messiah testified
that He was “The Son of GOD”, and that His GOD
was “The Only True GOD(Father of ALL)”.
(John 10:36,17:3)
And The Messiah also testified that He was the
“Son of man” and “The Light of the world”.
(Matt 26:64, John 8:12)
It is needful to believe that The Messiah Was, Is
and always Will Be “The Son of The Living GOD”,
and that there is but “One GOD, HE WHO is
Father of ALL”. (Mat 16:16, Eph 4:6) The Messiah
bore witness to His Brethren when He testified
after being “raised from among the dead”, “My GOD
is your GOD and My Father(Creator) is your Father
(Creator)” (John 20:17)
Is The Messiah’s GOD and Father your GOD
and Father?
Who are The Brethren of The Messiah?
“Let There Be Light”
Once again, It is very important to both know and
experience The Messiah as He Was, Is and always
Will Be. The Messiah simply testified in John 17:5
“And now O Father, glorify Me with YOUR own self
with the glory that I had with YOU before the world
began”.
Prior to that testimony The Messiah had testified,
“Yet a little while is The Light with you. Walk while
you have The Light, lest darkness comes upon
you: for he that walks in darkness does not know
where he goes. While you have Light, believe in
The Light, that you may be the children of Light.”
(John 12:35-36)
And the apostle John testified: “In the beginning
was the Word, and the Word was with GOD, and
The Word was GOD. (John did not testify that
The Word is GOD)The same was in the beginning
with GOD. All things were made by Him, and
without Him was not any thing made that was
made. In Him was Life; and The Life was The
Light of men. And The Light shined in darkness;
and the darkness comprehended it not. There
was a man sent from GOD, whose name was
John. The same came for a witness, to bear
witness of The Light, that all men through Him
might believe. He(John the baptist) was not that
Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
That was the True Light, which enlightens every
man that comes into the world. He(The Messiah)
was in the world, and the world was made by
Him, and the world knew Him not. He came unto
His own, and His own received Him not. But as
many as received Him, to them He gave power
to become the sons of GOD, even to them that
believe on His name: Which were born, not of
blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will
of man, but of “The Only True GOD, Father of
ALL”.” (John 1:1-13)
It is needful to realize that The Messiah testified
of “The Only True GOD” in John 17:3, and so it is
that The GOD and Father of The Messiah IS,
WAS and always WILL BE “The Only True GOD”.
“The Only True GOD” is “Father of ALL”.
And “The Father of ALL” is “Our Father”, HE WHO
IS “The Only True GOD” and Father of The Messiah
and His Brethren.
And the apostle John testified in John 3:17-21:
“For Our Father sent not his Son into the world
to condemn the world; but that the world through
Him might be saved. He that believes on Him is
not condemned: but he that believes not is
condemned already, because he has not believed
in the name of the only begotten Son of GOD(Our
Father). And this is the condemnation, that Light is
come into the world, and men loved darkness
rather than Light, because their deeds were evil.
For every one that does evil hates The Light,
neither comes to The Light, lest his deeds should
be reproved. But he that does Truth comes to The
Light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that
they are wrought in GOD(Our Father).”
In John 12:34 the people asked, “Who is this Son
of man? Then in John 12:35-36, “The Messiah said
unto them, yet a little while is The Light with you.
Walk while you have The Light, lest darkness come
upon you: for he that walks in darkness does not
know where he goes. While you have Light, believe
in The Light, that you may be the children of Light.
The Messiah spoke these things, and departed,
and hid Himself from them.”
Simply, “In The Beginning” The Only True GOD
spoke The Word, “Let There Be Light”, “And there
was Light”! “And there was evening(darkness) and
there was morning (Light), The First Day”. (Gen 1:5)
Certainly such “Light” was not “natural” light, for
“natural” light, the sun, moon, and stars were not
created until the “fourth day”. (Gen 1:14-19)
“In the beginning”, “The First Day”, The Father of
All created “The Light”, without which Creation and
Life, as we now know and experience it, could not
have been.
The First Day, “The Light”, The Messiah, “The
beginning of the Creation of GOD(HE WHO is
The Only True GOD and Father of ALL)”!
(Gen 1:3, Rev 3:14, John 17:3, Eph 4:6)
And “The Only True GOD” created all “things” by,
through, and for “The Light”, The Messiah, “The
Son of The Living GOD” and “Son of man”.
(Col 1:15, Eph 3:9, Mat 16:16, Mat 12:32)
LIGHT begets Light!
And “The True Light which enlightens every man
coming into the world”, was born as a child
destined to be The Messiah. (John 1:9, Mat 1:21)
The Messiah, “The Light of the world”.
(John 8:12, 9:5)
The Messiah, “The firstborn of every creature
(all creation)”. (Col 1:15)
The Messiah, “Begotten of Our Father”,
“The firstborn among many Brethren”.
(Heb 1:5) (Ps 2:7) (Rom 8:29)
The Messiah, “A servant of The Only True GOD
(Father of ALL)”. (Isa 42:1-7)
The Messiah, “The Lamb of GOD”.
(John 1:29,36)
The Messiah, “The firstborn from among the dead”.
(Col 1:18)
Once again: “In The Beginning” Our Father, “The
Only True GOD” spoke: “Let there be Light, and
there was Light”! The Messiah, “The Beginning of
the Creation of GOD”, “the firstborn of every
creature(all creation)”. (Gen 1:3, John 17:3,
Rev 3:14, Col 1:15)
Thanks Be To “Our Father”!
The Messiah, The Creation of “The Only True
GOD, Father of ALL”! (Rev 3:14)
The Messiah, “made so much better than the
angels”! (Heb 1:4)
The Messiah, “The Light of the world”!
(John 8:12, 9:5)
“The Lamb of GOD”, “The Light of The New
Heavenly Jerusalem”! (Rev 21:22-23)
Paul experienced “The Light ” on the road to
Damascus. “And it came to pass, that, as I
made my journey, and came near unto
Damascus about noontime, suddenly a great
Light from Heaven shone round about me.
And I fell unto the ground, and heard a voice
saying unto me, Saul, Saul, why do you
persecute Me? And I answered, “Who are
You, Master”? And He said unto me, I am
Yehowshuwa’(Yeshua, Jeshua) of Nazareth,
Whom you persecute. And they that were
with me saw The Light, and were afraid; but
they did not hear the voice of Him that spoke
to me. And I said, “What shall I do, Master”?
And He said unto me, arise and go into
Damascus, and there you shall be told all
things which are appointed for you to do.
And when I could not see for the glory of
that Light, I was led by the hand into
Damascus.” (Acts 22:6-11)
Paul also testified, “At midday I saw in the
way a Light from Heaven, ABOVE THE
BRIGHTNESS OF THE SUN, shining round
about me and those who journeyed with me.
And when we were all fallen to the earth, I
heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying
in the HEBREW tongue, Saul, Saul, why do
you persecute Me? It is hard for you to kick
against the pricks.” (The Messiah could not
have told Paul, “I am jesus” for He spoke in
the “HEBREW tongue”) (Acts 26:13-14)
Paul saw “The Light” that was The Messiah
and he was blinded(naturally, not Spiritually)
for a time. Now when The Messiah was in
the “likeness of sinful flesh”, born as “the
Son of man”, He could only reflect “The
Light”, liken unto the moon which but reflects
the light of the natural sun.
“Let There Be Light”
The Messiah, “The Light of the world”!
And consider the natural light provided by the
sun, which was Created on the fourth day.
Does not the natural light of the sun reveal
outwardly, all the earthly, natural things?
Consider what happens when that which you
thought was clean is exposed to the light of
the sun? Is not the least outward particle of
uncleanness readily seen in the light of the
sun? And so it is with “The Light” that is The
Messiah. For His Life, “The Life”, reveals
and exposes all the uncleanness in “our”
life, the life that is of “our” own creation,
which is the “I(ego, id)” in all of us, the
product of “our” own vain “imag”inations!
So it needs be that “The Light” penetrates
deeply, even into the innermost recesses
of the heart, “rightly dividing the soul and
spirit”, exposing all the darkness that the
“I” in all of us did not want to “see”!
Yet for such a cleansing to begin one must
“experience The Messiah(The Light) and
The Power that raised Him from among the
dead”!(Php 3:10) Oh, there are many who
know of a “messiah”, yet who has
experienced “The Light”? For “The Light”
was “The Beginning of Creation” both the
old, which was natural and earthly and The
New, which is of The Spirit and Heavenly.
Those who “love this world and it’s things”
yet desire that which “decayed, waxed
old and vanished away” (Heb 8:13) They
are of those “whose ‘god’ is their belly,
and whose glory is in their shame, for
they mind earthly things”. (Phlp 3:19)
Sadly, those who “love this world and it’s
things” yet love darkness more than The
Light and they will abide in the darkness
they loved forever ;-( (1Jn2:15,Jn3:19-20)
Sadder yet, systems of religion that are of
this world, such as “catholicism”, “christianity”,
“judaism”, “islam”, etc., have so perverted
The Testimonies, that today, as in the two
thousand or so, years gone by, “The Way
of Truth is evil spoken of”! All because of
the theo’ry’logical, heretical doctrines that
are of men! And especially those
theo’ry’logical doctrines which seek to
define “The Only True GOD, Father of All”.
(2Peter 2:1-2)
All such doctrines are but the product of
mankind’s “imag”ination and mankind’s
“imag”ination is destroying and perverting
Creation(land, air, water, creatures, Light,
Truth, Love, Peace, Joy, Hope, .etc.)
Yes, sadly ;-( Creation is being destroyed
by self-willed men who could care less
about that which is of The Truth(What Is,
Was, and always Will Be), and care even
less about those things which they can
not comprehend apart from their
“natural” senses and mental processes ;-(
And The Truth testifies, The Creator “will
destroy those who destroy the earth(HIS
Creation)”(Rev 11:18).
Sadly, in this wicked world, those who
seek profit will naturally overcome those
who do not ;-(
Yet, There Is Hope!
For The Life is of The Spirit!
And Miracles do happen!
And Faith rejoices against profit(greed)
and theo’ry’logy(logic)!
Hope is there would be those who experience
The Miracle that is receiving “a love of The
Truth” for they will “see” “The Light”.
(2Thes 2:10, John 8:12, 9:5)
And they will receive peace, in spite of the
dis-ease(no-peace) that is of this world, for
they will clearly “see” that “The WHOLE
world is under the control of the evil one”.
(1John 5:19) And they will clearly “see”
things as they are and not as “imag”inative,
world-loving humans would have others
believe them to be, for they will “see” The
Light that is The Messiah……. francisco
Hi there,
what is this supposed to say or achieve?
I had wanted to write a few more straight forward words of what I thought about it, but refrained myself instead to the above question …
Cheers,
Wolfgang
Are you saying that just because Jesus is called the ‘Bright and Morning Star’, and refers to those that follow him, those he commissioned to go into the world to preach the Gospel of the Kingdom of God as the ‘Light of the World’, that he preexisted? As I understand it, you are basing your point on the fact that you interpret the use of the world ‘light’ (phos in Greek) here to be a direct correlation to the Hebrew word for light, owrah.
Wolfgang, your question was sufficient. Anything more would have been wasted.
John Hawkins, I would like to share my thoughts on John 8:58.
As John O mentioned earlier, one of the things the Jews thought about the Messiah was that he always existed in the mind of God, as part of God’s plan. Thus, when Jesus prayed in John 17:5, “And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.”, he was not speaking of his existence before becoming human, but of the glory God the Father had planned for His son even before He created the world. In verses 17:11 and 13, Jesus says, “I am coming to you”, (not ‘I am returning to you’ or ‘coming back to you’).
The statement of Jesus in Jn 8:56 was “Abraham, your father, ardently desired that he might see my day; and he saw, and was glad.” What day was he talking about? The day of the Messiah, when he would return in glory. The Jews did not understand this, and asked if he was claiming to be older than Abraham. Verse 58 reads; “I tell you the truth,…, before Abraham was born, I am”. This can also be translated correctly as ” I am he.”, and is translated that way in other translations. Had he ever said this
before? If you have a NIV, go back to Jn 8:24. Jesus says, “I told you that you would die in your sins: if you do not believe that I am {the one I claim to be}…” If you will look at the footnote in the NIV, you will see that this can also be translated “I am he”. So, he said in verse 24, “I told you that you would die in your sins, if you do not believe that I am he.”
Had he ever used these words to describe himself as the Messiah before? Please look at his conversation with the Samaritan woman in Jn 4. In verse 25 she said to him, “I know that Messiah is coming. When he comes he will explain everything to us.” He answered in verse 26, “I who speak to you am he.”
So, had Jesus told them that he was the Messiah, or had he claimed to be God? Let’s look in Jn 10:24. ‘The Jews gathered around him, saying, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly.” 25. Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father’s name speak for me, 26. but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27. My sheep listen to my voice: I know them, and they follow me. 28. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish: no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all: no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.”
The Jews misunderstood this statement, just as trinitarians and pre-exixtence believers do today. They picked up stones to stone him. Jesus said 31, “I have shown you many great miracles form the Father. For which of these do you stone me?” 33. “We are not stoning you for any of these,” replied the Jews, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.” 34. Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in you Law, ‘I have said you are gods’? (Ps 82:6) 35. If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came-and the Scripture cannot be broken- 36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphimy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?” (The Jews should have recognized this, because ‘Son of God’ was a title of the Messiah to come, but they were too intent on other thoughts at the time.) 37. “Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does. 38. But if I do it, even though you do not beieve me, believe the miracles, that you may learn and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.”
I think he explained pretty clearly what he meant there by saying that he and the Father were one. And notice that right before saying that he and the Father were one, he said that the Father was greater than all, (and this would include himself). Now let’s go back Jn 17 and Jesus’ prayer for his disciples before his arrest. 17:13 “I am coming to you now, but I say these things while I am still in the world, so that they may have the full measure of my joy within them. 14. I have given them your word and the world has hated them, for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world. ( Does this mean that they are gods? I don’t think so.) 15. My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one. 16. They are not of the world, even as I am not of it. 17. Sanctify them by the truth: your word is truth. 18 As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world. ( Does this mean that they pre-existed just as he had pre-existed, or that Jesus sent them as his messengers, after they had come into existence, just as God had sent Jesus as His messenger, after Jesus had come into existence?)19. For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified. 20. My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one; 23 I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.” MAY THEY BE BROUGHT TO COMPLETE UNITY. That sounds to me like a pretty good definition of being one.
Did Jesus mean here that all believers would actually be one being, or that they would all have one purpose? Did he mean that he and the Father were one being, or that they would have one purpose? When a man leaves his father and mother and cleaves to his wife, and the two become one flesh, are they actually one person, or do they become one in purpose?
John, I know I’ve had more to say here than the “I am” question, but I wanted to address a couple of other pre-existence thoughts while I was at it. Anyway, as far as the “I am” statement, it can be correctly translated “I am he” in Jn 8:58, and Jesus used these same words elsewhere to describe himself as the Messiah. The Jews just didn’t understand him, (same as people today), because they thought he MUST be saying he was God, (same as people today.) He used those exact words to describe himself as the Messiah to the Samaritan woman. And when the Jews asked him againg in Jn chapter 10 “If you are the Christ, tell us plainly.”, he replied, “I did tell you, but you do not believe.” When did he tell these Jews? In Jn 8:58.