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14 Responses to “1 John 3, Some Thoughts”

1. on 25 Jun 2008 at 12:16 pm1 Kyle

   hmm….
   before I share my view I am curious to know what you think it is saying…

2. on 25 Jun 2008 at 12:56 pm2 Sean

   Is it saying that those who are born of God no longer sin nor are even capable of sinning and that those who do sin are the children of the devil?

   It is a wonderfully radical statement. I just don’t know if I am understanding it correctly.

3. on 25 Jun 2008 at 1:25 pm3 Mark

   I don’t know either. In the past I heard it explained that we don’t sin in the spirit. They believed that your “gift of holy spirit” was the real you and in that spirit you did not sin, while you might sin in the flesh. But in that background this was used as an excuse for a lot of sinning, with the thinking that what you did in the flesh didn’t matter because your spirit is what counts.

   I don’t believe that was the correct understanding of this pasage, but I’m not sure what it does mean. How could it be that Christians are not even capable of sinning? We know first hand that we sin! And John writes in the same epistle:

   1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.
   9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
   10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.
   2:1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;

   I have heard it said more recently that it’s not talking about the occasional slipup, but one who continues to sin habitually. I’m not sure how that concluson is arrived at though.

4. on 25 Jun 2008 at 1:58 pm4 Victor

   one thing I will add is that I believe there is some allusion to to the parable of the sower - we see the language of the “seed”as well as that being an agent in being “born again” (see I Peter 1:23-25). Peter and John were key disciples of Jesus who would have had heard this teaching many times. Perhaps the gospel being deep in the good ground heart of a person who has been born again will not sin - but if it does not stay/abide there, sin will be there.

5. on 25 Jun 2008 at 2:20 pm5 Sean

   I would add to that agricultural parable another which can be found in the Gospel of John:

   John 15:1-11
   “I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 “Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit. 3 “You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 “Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. 5 “I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. 6 “If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned. 7 “If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 “My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples. 9 “Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love. 10 “If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love. 11 “These things I have spoken to you so that My joy may be in you, and that your joy may be made full.

   I think this parable is the necessary background to understand 1 John regarding the usage of the word “abide,” which occurs and astounding 24 times in the epistle.

   Perhaps the parable of the vine and the parable of the seed & sower are in the background for understanding these verses?

6. on 25 Jun 2008 at 2:21 pm6 Victor

   Another thought.

   Compare vs 6 - “No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him.”

   With vs 7 - “Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous”

   One needs to abide (John 15) in Him and practice righteousness to be truly “of Him” and “righteous.

   Just pointing out more elements of this section which might help us figure this out.

   Mark, one thing you bring up is excellent - we have certainly heard and can see from other Scriptures that the “practice” of sin is where there is serious warning, but the “occasional” sin isn’t what is being addressed here, and we have other Scriptures which speak to that, like the ones you cited. But I will add to this that we shouldn’t sin at all! We have John write that 2:1 - we have focused too much on “I’m going to sin” rather than “I want to live holy” - we have a Holy God and the holy spirit which empowers the faithful - why would we keep the standard so low?

   Also, Sean, I see how you translated “poion” from vs 7 - what do you think of the NASB translation of “practices”?

7. on 25 Jun 2008 at 2:32 pm7 Kyle

   The “Saint” Language that Paul uses so often in the openings of his letters may add to the evidence in this conversation as well.
   We see that those who are “in Christ” are no longer considered sinners but saints.
   I think it’s an identity issue. “I have been crucified with Christ. I am no longer alive but Christ lives in me. I now live this fleshly life by faith in the son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.” [Gal. 2:30]. “For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin-because anyone who has died has been freed from sin” [Romans 6:6,7]. “It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God-that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption” [1 Cor 1:30].
   Paul and John in the verse under discussion create a new paradigm for the Christian to live up to. We are no longer sinners, that aspect of ourselves is dead. Of course, it was pointed out that just a chapter earlier John tells us that we deceive ourselves to say that we don’t sin.
   It seems paradoxical, but if we think about Christ being our identity then it might be possible to say we do not sin and with identity we don’t give ourselves the lenience to say that “I am just a sinner” or “I am only human.” Neither of those excuses are valid upon becoming identified with Christ.

8. on 25 Jun 2008 at 2:37 pm8 Kyle

   I also think it’s funny-well, not really that funny, but I couldn’t think of anything other to say-that righteousness is what identifies us as a “child of God” rather than making sure we have all of the knowledge. This seems to harken back to the Sheep and Goats image that Christ gives us in Matthew 25. Those who feed, give drinks to, invite in, clothe, and look after “the least of these brothers of mine” are the ones that are considered righteous.

9. on 25 Jun 2008 at 3:11 pm9 Sean

   Victor,

   Excellent points regarding emphasis. I would add to your comments Paul’s quip, “stop sinning”

   1 Corinthians 15:33-34 33 Do not be deceived: “Bad company corrupts good morals.” 34 Become sober-minded as you ought, and stop sinning; for some have no knowledge of God. I speak this to your shame.

   poiew means “to do” or “to make” primarily, which is why I translated it that way. Here is the complete entry from my UBS dictionary:

   make, do, cause, effect, bring about, accomplish, perform, provide; create (of God); produce, yield, bear, put forth; give, prepare, keep, celebrate (of feasts, etc.); claim, pretend (to be somebody); show (mercy, etc.); work, be active; live, practice, act ( kalw/j pÅ do good, act benevolently or kindly); spend, stay (of time); exercise (authority); wage (war); execute (judgment); give (alms); appoint; consider, count…

   There is nothing special about this word that implies a general tendency as one would read if it were “practice.” For example, if we see “practice sin” the image that comes to mind is of one whose practice is to sin (that is, they may do righteous things from time to time but their general practice is to sin). I don’t think this word is so theological as that. 1 John is saying that if you do/make sin you are of the devil and if you do/make righteousness then you are a child of God. I don’t know. Maybe a Greek expert can help us on this one.

   Mark,

   I am leery of interpreting the Bible based on my own experience rather than the other way around. Even so, I’m in the same boat as you. Perhaps we are taking the text too literally? Did John really say that those who are the children of God never sin again? It sure looks like that, but maybe we are missing some cultural key to understanding this. Perhaps it was common to speak in hyperbole or something?

   Kyle,

   On your first comment I really appreciated the verses you quoted. Our “old man” was crucified with Christ, which means it is dead (i.e. no longer a problem). However, some of what you said about identity I have heard others say as an excuse to keep sinning. They said that since they are identified with Christ, they can continue in sin because when God looks at them he sees Jesus’ righteousness, or something.

   On your second comment…You are such a social activist

10. on 26 Jun 2008 at 3:07 pm10 Kyle

    hahaha! Why thank you!
    It’s interesting to hear you say that some use that as an excuse to keep on sinning, I guess I had never imagined someone thinking of it that way. To me it is such a compulsion to discontinue sinning. That’s good to know though!

11. on 27 Jun 2008 at 8:08 am11 Dustin

    Sean, as you know, “sin” in the present tense denotes not just a one-time action in the present, but also may/could/should include a continous actions.

    “Everyone who is born of God does not “keep on sinning” …..

    We know that believers sin, for 1 John 1:6-9 make that clear and makes a way of atonement for it.

    Its all a matter of balance.

    Just my two cents, now, off to eatting marshmallows for breakfast =)

    Dustin

12. on 09 Jul 2008 at 8:09 am12 Sean

    I recently came across this note from the NET Bible which I found to be very helpful:

    sn Does not sin. It is best to view the distinction between “everyone who practices sin” in 3:4 and “everyone who resides in him” in 3:6 as absolute and sharply in contrast. The author is here making a clear distinction between the opponents, who as moral indifferentists downplay the significance of sin in the life of the Christian, and the readers, who as true Christians recognize the significance of sin because Jesus came to take it away (3:5) and to destroy it as a work of the devil (3:8). This argument is developed more fully by S. Kubo (”I John 3:9: Absolute or Habitual?” AUSS 7 [1969]: 47-56), who takes the opponents as Gnostics who define sin as ignorance. The opponents were probably not adherents of fully developed gnosticism, but Kubo is right that the distinction between their position and that of the true Christian is intentionally portrayed by the author here as a sharp antithesis. This explanation still has to deal with the contradiction between 2:1–2 and 3:6–9, but this does not present an insuperable difficulty. The author of 1 John has repeatedly demonstrated a tendency to present his ideas antithetically, in “either/or” terms, in order to bring out for the readers the drastic contrast between themselves as true believers and the opponents as false believers. In 2:1–2 the author can acknowledge the possibility that a true Christian might on occasion sin, because in this context he wishes to reassure his readers that the statements he has made about the opponents in the preceding context do not apply to them. But in 3:4–10, his concern is to bring out the absolute difference between the opponents and his readers, so he speaks in theoretical rather than practical terms which do not discuss the possible occasional exception, because to do so would weaken his argument.

13. on 21 Jul 2008 at 3:20 pm13 Ken

    I believe the parable of the sower and of the vine and branches from comments 4 & 5 have a relevance to I John 3: 4-10. Comment 12 introduces some interesting possibilities. As noted, this cannot be divorced from the context of believers getting off track, needing to confess sins, and needing to trust God’s provision in Christ in a practical way: I John 1: 6- 2: 2.
    Perhaps further insights from the context of I John might clarify the focus of seemingly difficult statements. There is a major theme of hating brothers (while saying “I know him” but not keeping his commandments) vs. loving brothers (and keeping his commandments) surrounding the context of ch. 3: 4-10. (I John 2:3- 11 and ch. 3: 11-24) The hipocrisy of pretended love is repeatedly emphasized: 3:17 -19 & 4:20,21 and 2:9. Perhaps the context of clear distinction between Gnosticism and true faith (as per comment 12) calls for such language about habitually practicing righteousness vs. practicing sin, because the bad “fruit” was so obvious among those trying to mislead true believers: (those who professed spirituality while denying Jesus’ complete humanity and stumbling in the darkness of despising others [perhaps with arrogant, intellectual disdain.])
    In contrast, the true, faithful believers who trust the guidance of the anointing received (2: 20,24, 27) and act accordingly (2: 29 and throughout ch. 3) would be confidently, undoubtedly walking and growing in love (2:10, 3:19-24, 4:7-21, etc.) without fear regarding the future judgement (2:28 & 4:17,18.)
    By regarding the strong, contrasting statements of 3: 4-10 as a function of the overall set of contrasts throughout the epistle, there is no inconsistency with the necessary acknowledgement of the sins of believers in 1: 6-2:2. The idea of “habitually practicing” righteousness instead of sin is logically inherent in a message designed to comfort faithful ones (5: 12-14) while warning them not to be mislead by the influence of false doctrine (accompanied by bad fruit.)
    To understand this should not induce us to make excuses for sin, anymore than we should be deceived into thinking we arrive at a place of having no sins (slips into “walking in darkness”) to confess.
    To turn 3: 4-10 into a series of absolute statements devoid of a wider context, could induce well- meaning believers to dive into a tailspin of self doubt (Does my error mean I am not really a believer?) each time they fall short while trying to do the right thing (in thoughts, attitudes, words, actions, etc.)
    In a study of I John tonight, we will be going over this section in ch. 3. Reading this blog with the accompanying comments has been very helpful. Pray for me. I do not want to cause anyone to draw any misleading conclusions. God bless.

14. on 21 Jul 2008 at 3:44 pm14 Sean

    Ken,

    Thank you for your remarks. You mentioned the danger of people going into a tail spin by questioning if they ever were believers in the first place. This is certainly something we need to be sensitive too. On the other side, we should never lower the bar so that people who have low self-confidence can be comforted while yet remaining in sin. I know that may have sounded harsh, but I come from the opposite side. My tendency growing up was to look at the meager requirements of merely believing and then use that to my own advantage to justify a lifestyle of sin. When someone sets the bar high, I don’t ask myself if I’m really a believer, I rise up to meet it the best I can. Clearly we have to keep these things in tension.

    I certainly agree with you that John is not talking about occasional slips in a righteous life, but he is talking about a general rule. Generally, those who are born of God do not sin. That is not our m.o. Our is to live righteously. That’s how one can look at a child of God and distinguish him or her from a child of the devil. There is a radical new nature (regeneration?) that occurs at conversion that gives the child of God a new appetite for righteousness and a fresh distaste for sin.

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