The God of Thomas?
July 12th, 2008 by Ron S.
Discussion of Thomas’ words in John 20:28 has been a hot discussion topic of late here on kingdomready. So I thought it was fitting AND timely when I ran across an excellent article on the same subject by Ivan Maddox of West End Bible Fellowship in Atlanta Georgia. Ivan’s full article is rather long, so I thought I would post a couple of interesting latter segments of it and provide a link to the full piece (Did Thomas Claim that Jesus is God?) for those who wish to read the entire paper (which I would heartily recommend).
The God of Thomas?
There is another very serious problem with Thomas’ alleged confession. If the traditional understanding of this passage is true, then Thomas is guilty not only of confessing a God different from the God revealed in the Hebrew scriptures, but of confessing a God different from the one worshipped by Trinitarians as well. For the God Thomas allegedly confesses is not the three in one God of the Trinitarians; neither is He “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ” (Ephesians 1:17).
If Thomas truly intended for his words to be a confession of what he believed about God, his confession is dangerously deficient; for in reaching out to embrace his new God, Jesus Christ, Thomas seemingly let go of his old God, the God and Father of Jesus Christ. The Father is explicitly omitted from Thomas’ confession.
However, Thomas may not have meant to let go of the Father in his confession. There are at least two ways in which Thomas’ new confession could be reconciled with his old beliefs concerning who God is:
- He could have meant that he believed that Jesus was God in addition to the Father; or
- He could have meant that he believed that Jesus WAS God the Father.
Either way, his statement is divorced both from the strict unitarianism of the Hebrew scriptures (and of the rest of the Bible) and from traditional Trinitarianism. In place of these, Thomas has become, if proponents of Thomas’ words as a confession are to be believed, either a polytheist or a modalist. Both of these teachings are branded today as lies by traditional Trinitarians. The traditional interpretation of this passage, then, implies that Jesus put his blessing on what is today considered a lie, without so much as a qualifying remark or a correction to keep people out of the same trap that Thomas had supposedly fallen into.
It is argued by some that Thomas, when he came face to face with the risen Christ, finally believed what Jesus had been teaching all along about God and about himself. There are two serious problems with this argument. First, Jesus never once called himself God, or taught that he himself was God. Thus, in making this confession, Thomas was going well beyond the teaching and guidance of his master, into uncharted spiritual waters. Second, Jesus was very explicit and consistent in referring to his Father — and ONLY his Father! — as God.
A good example of Jesus’ teaching on himself and God is his conversation with the Samaritan woman at the well.
John 4:22-26
22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
24 God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth.
25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.
26 Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am [he].
Jesus told this woman that the time would come when “the true worshippers shall worship the Father…” He omitted both himself and “God the Holy Spirit” from the list of who was to be worshipped by “the true worshippers.” He did not say that they would worship “God,” which today would be considered ambiguous; he specifically limited their worship to “the Father.”
What did he teach this woman about himself? When she spoke of her hope concerning the Messiah, Jesus made it clear that he was the Messiah she was waiting for. The woman believed this, and that was enough for Jesus. He made no claims of being God to her. By today’s standards, his teaching in this case would be considered dangerously incomplete at best, and dishonest at worst.
But what is even more important for us concerning Jesus’ teaching about God is that Jesus never once indicated that God is made up of more than one being. What this means is that if Thomas were truly confessing Jesus as God, he could not have been doing so in a Binitarian (two in one) or Trinitarian sense. He would have to be confessing that Jesus was either a second God alongside the Father, or that Jesus was God in place of God the Father, or that God the Father was appearing on earth in a special guest role as Jesus Christ. All three of these possibilities are considered heretical by Trinitarians today.
The God of Thomas and the God of Jesus
While the alleged confession of Jesus Christ as God by Thomas is often noted, the confession by Jesus Christ of a completely different God — in the very same passage of scripture! — is rarely mentioned. Since the Gods confessed by Thomas and Jesus are so radically different, it might be worthwhile to compare the characteristics of the two. So, with sincere apologies to the apostle Thomas (who I firmly believe is completely innocent of the charges leveled against him by sincere and well-meaning Christians), let us compare the God confessed by Thomas with the God confessed by Jesus.
- The God of Thomas is Jesus.
- The God of Jesus is the Father.
- The God of Thomas is the head of every man.
- The God of Jesus is the head of Christ.
- The God of Thomas died and rose from the dead.
- The God of Jesus alone has immortality.
- The God of Thomas was in all ways tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
- The God of Jesus cannot be tempted with evil.
- The God of Thomas gave gifts unto men.
- The God of Jesus gave him the gifts that he gave unto men.
- The God of Thomas gives revelation to men.
- The God of Jesus gives him revelation, which he can then give to men.
- The God of Thomas is seated at the right hand of his Father now, and will one day sit on his throne on earth.
- The throne of the God of Jesus is heaven.
- The God of Thomas once consisted of a single cell in his mother’s womb.
- The heaven of heavens cannot contain the God of Jesus.
- The God of Thomas always does his Father’s will.
- The God of Jesus does all things after the counsel of His Own will.
- The God of Thomas is the Word of God.
- The God of Jesus is the Author of the Word of God.
Whose God is the true God: the God of Thomas, or the God of Jesus?
John 17:3
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
Sad it is ;-( that the multitudes believe a heretical
tradition regarding The One many, who say they are
believers, seek to follow. He Who is “The Messiah,
The Son of The Living GOD”.
Seems there is undeniable proof that the traditional name
of ‘jesus’ was not The Messiah’s GOD given birth Name
in any language! And proof exists in not just one, but all
New Testament Greek manuscripts from which catholic
and christian translators created their version of the
“bibles”!
Yes, undeniable proof!
First, the Greek word “Iesous” was used by those who
translated the Greek Septuagint, which was the Hebrew
to Greek translation of the Old Testimonies.
In the Greek Septuagint, which was translated prior to
the birth of The Messiah, the Greek word “Iesous” was
used to represent “Je(o)shua, son of Nun, so named by
Moses”. (Numbers 13:16)
And so it was established that the Greek name “Iesous”
represented the Hebrew name YeHoWsHuwa’(which
should have been translated as Jeshua, rather than
‘joshua’ in the English language Old Testaments).
Then in most all the New Testament translations, from
the various Greek manuscripts, the word “Iesous” was
translated correctly as Je(o)shua(YeHoWsHuwa’) in both
Acts 7:45 and Heb 4:8 and then the same Greek word
“Iesous” was traditionally(for the past 500, or so, years)
translated as their “imag”ined ‘jesus’ in all other places
of the English language New Testaments ;-(
However, in the original kjv(aptly named as king james’
version for it was of his church OF england) those who
did the translating of the New Testament decided to
rename Je(o)shua and declared the Je(o)shua of the
Old Testament to be of the same name as their
“imag”ined ‘jesus’ in both Acts 7:45 and Heb 4:8 ;-(
At least the translators of the kjv were consistent, and
in every place translated “Iesous” as ‘jesus’, yet the
result of their consistency is confusion ;-(
And so it was that a heretical tradition was established
less than 500 years past ;-(
Now if one wishes to take liberty and change the name
of the Old Testament “Je(o)shua” to ‘jesus’, well that is
their choice, yet a sad choice indeed and Truth ;-(
And worse yet you could accept the traditional lie that
the Greek word “Iesous” represents both “Jeshua” and
the catholic and christian ‘jesus’. For those who seek
The Light of Truth that is confusing at best! Another
sad choice ;-( Simply, The Messiah, and Jeshua of
The Old Testimonies were given the same name.
I have been, and know that i will yet be accused of
having my portion with the “sacred name folk” or some
other similar religious group. And yet that is as far
from Truth as one could be, for i believe that, “that
which decayed and waxed old” did indeed and Truth
“vanish away” with the destruction of the earthly,
natural kingdom that was centered in old jerusalem.
The Kingdom of GOD is now Spiritual and the body of a
believer is the Temple for the indwelling Spirit, The Spirit
that leads believers on The Way to The Truth of The Life.
Sadly, many believe that a name is not important ;-( Now
when a man makes such a statement to me i simply reply,
“ok, if that’s what you believe Martha”, or if it be a woman,
“ok, if that’s what you believe Matthew”. And the Name
of The Messiah? Not important? Since when is Truth not
important?
Truth is important, for apart from Truth there is nothing
but “confusion and every evil work” and Truth IS that the
“imag”ined name of ‘jesus’ was not spoken for more than
1500 years after The Only True GOD raised The Messiah
from among the dead! Truth IS that The Messiah’s GOD
given birth Name was YeHoWsHuwa’(Jeshua in modern
day English)!
Prior to the 16th century there was no ‘j’ sound in the
English language and that is is verifiable in most any
encyclopedia. And there never has been a ‘j’ sound in
either Hebrew or Greek.
Seems the vain “imag”inations of the “catholic” and
“christian” systems of religion have caused “The Way
of Truth to be evil spoken of”, so why continue to use
their “imag”ined name for “The Son of Living GOD”?
Those who yet cling to the “imag”ined name of ‘jesus’,
after The Truth was presented unto them, have chosen
to accept the traditional lies of pagan catholicism and
her firstborn “christian” daughter, “the church OF england” ;-(
I am sad for all yet held captive by the “strong delusion”
that is their “imag”ined ‘jesus’ ;-(
Yet there is hope!
For Miracles do happen!
Hope is there would be those who would experience
The Miracle that is receiving “a love of The Truth”!
Truth IS, Yeshua(Jeshua in modern day english) is
The Messiah, Immanuel, The Son of The Living GOD!
Peace, in spite of the dis-ease(no-peace) that is of
this wicked world and it’s systems of religion, for
“the WHOLE world is under the control of the evil
one”(1Jn5:19) indeed and Truth……. francisco
francisco,
First of all, the inspired writers of the NT chose not to preserve the Aramiac form of Jesus’ name. Of course, they could have done this if they wanted to (as they transliterated other sections of Aramiac into Greek). So, if you believe the NT was inspired then you believe that there is no problem with translating “Yeshua” into “Iesous.” Second of all, if there was no problem translating from Aramaic into Greek then there is no problem translating to English as either Joshua or Jesus. Since, there a bazillion Joshuas in the world and relatively few Jesuses, it makes perfect sense to translate the Greek New Testament word “Iesous” into English as Jesus. In fact, if we are doing a literal translation, this is the only responsible option to us. You are not fighting against Catholics and translation comittees conspiring against some secret name; no, you are fighting the very men who wrote the NT because it was they who decided to translate it into Greek. Are you in a better position to know truth than the writers of the NT?
@Ron S.,
your excerpts of the mentioned article could leave me with the impression that the article by Ivan Maddox claims that Thomas confessed a false God in his words in what he said as recorded in Joh 20 … is this actually what the article says?
Or does the article (in those sections which were not excerpted here) actually say that the many who claim today that Thomas confessed Jesus as his God are false claims based on an incorrect understanding of Thomas’ exclamation since Thomas obviously did not mean to make such claim nor did Jesus understand him to make such a claim ?
Cheers,
Wolfgang
sean has no answer for the undeniable Truth.
sadly he fails to mention that the “imag”ined name of ‘jesus’ was
first translated as such less than 500 years ago when the ‘j’ sound
was first used in the english language. he also fails to mention that
there is no ‘j’ sound in Hebrew or greek. he also does not mention
that those who follow the spirit that established “the church OF
england” abide in darkness and can not “see” The Light that is
Yeshua(Jeshua in modern day english), The Messiah.
simply, the pagan greek word “Iesous” was established as the
transliteration of the Hebrew name “Yehowshuwa’” long before
The Messiah was born in the “likeness of sinful flesh, and the
Hebrew name “Yehowshuwa’” is translitered as “Joshua” in the
modern day “biblical” english translations of the Old Covenant.
all New Covenant greek manuscripts established “Iesous” as the
transliteration of the Hebrew GOD given birth Name of HIS Son,
The Messiah.
Hebrew name = Yehowshuwa’
greek transliteration = Iesous
modern english transliteration = Joshua(Jeshua is more accurate)
why would “unitarians” seek to prove that the “imag”ined name of
‘jesus’, which the catholic and christian systems of religion gave to
one-head of their three-headed ‘god’, is the GOD given birth Name
of HIS Son, The Messiah?
answer is, they yet abide in the darkness that is catholicism and her
#1 harlot chrisitan daughter “the church OF england”!
what can one expect when they call on the name given to one-head
of a three-headed “imag”ined pagan ‘god’?
naught but the destruction and perversion of Creation(land, air, water,
creatures, Light, Truth, Love, Peace, Hope, Faith, Simplicity, Mercy, etc.)
yet there is hope!
for Miracles do happen!
hope is there would be those who experience The Miracle that is
receiving “a love of The Truth” for they will “see” The Light that is
Joshua(better translated Jeshua) The Messiah.
peace, in spite of the dis-ease(tradition) that is of this wicked world,
for “the WHOLE world is under the control of the evil one”…….
francisco
simply, Thomas finally “saw” that “The Only True GOD” was in The
Messiah! “My Master and My GOD”!
“GOD was IN The Messiah”, Immanuel indeed and Truth!
francisco,
Did you read what I wrote before? The apostles themselves did not insist on calling him Yeshua. They wrote Iesous. The only responsible way to translate Iesous into English is to write Jesus (regardless of how you say the ‘j’ sound). Your argument that catholics of the C of E changed it is wrong. The apostles were the ones who wrote Iesous. If we were having this conversation in Greek then that is what we would call him. You must admit that if it were important to say Yeshua that the apostles are the ones in error when they translated that name into Greek rather than transliterating it.
sadly, catholicism and her #1 daughter have had their
with you. and then you have the audacity to say that
“the apostles were in error” when “they” translated
that name into greek.
the greeks had already translated The Messiah’s name
long before.
and what is the “imag”ined date the theo’ry’logians have
determined for the earliest greek manuscript?
and who had control of all manuscrpts at that time?
the apostles were not even born when the Hebrew
name of “Yehowshuwa’” was translated into the greek,
by the pagan greeks, as “Iesous” in the greek septuagint.
and so it is that The Messiah’s GOD given birth name
was Yehowshuwa, Yeshua, or Jeshua if you prefer
modern day english.
the “church OF england” is but a worldly pagan system
of religion, the #1 daughter of her pagan catholic mother!
simple, sad for you sean.
yet there is hope!
for Miracles do happen!
came to me to update my last comment concerning “My Master and
My GOD”
once again, Thomas finally “saw” that “The Only True GOD”, HE WHO
IS SPIRIT, was in The Messiah!
Paul testified that “GOD was IN The Messiah”, not that “god was
the messiah”. and the Brethren of The Messiah will experience “The Spirit IN you, the hope of glory”!
The Messiah, Immanuel indeed and Truth!
and “the church OF england’s” kjv use of “my lord and my god” in
translation but adds to the confusion caused by their translation of
“YHWH” as “LORD GOD”. sad indeed and Truth for they have used
the testimony of Thomas to confound the multitudes!
such confusion helps them keep the multitudes in darkness, and how
“great is that darkness” for multitudes believe in their three-headed
pagan ‘god’, or believe that their “imag”ined ‘jesus’ is ‘the only true
god’.
yet there is hope!
for Miracles do happen!
hope is there would be those who experience The Miracle that is
receiving “a love of The Truth”.
there is Only One True GOD, HE WHO reveals all things, and HE IS The
GOD and Father of The Messiah and His Brethren.
Father Help! and HE does…….
Again, I’m the one backing up what the apostles did–they translated Yeshua into Iesous. You are saying they were in error and they should have kept to Yeshua. Are you comfortable with calling him Iesous? If not, then you cast judgment on every writer of the NT.
Again, this has nothing to do with catholics or the c of e!
First of all, the Septuagint was translated by Jewish scholars, not pagan Greeks, so that the many Jews scattered throughout the Grecian empire would have the Scriptures in the most widely used language at the time.
Second, while it may have been first translated before the apostles were born, if there was anything wrong with using the Greek name Iesous, the apostles would have said so, and not used it. There is nothing inherently pagan or evil about translating the name into another language. The meaning of the name remains the same.
Before you make condescending remarks like “sad for you…” it would help you to get your facts straight.
sadly, catholicism and her #1 daughter have had their
with you. and then you have the audacity to say that
“the apostles were in error” when “they” translated
that name into greek.
the greeks had already translated The Messiah’s name
long before.
and what is the “imag”ined date the theo’ry’logians have
determined for the earliest greek manuscript?
and who had control of all manuscrpts at that time?
the apostles were not even born when the Hebrew
name of “Yehowshuwa’” was translated into the greek,
by the pagan greeks, as “Iesous” in the greek septuagint.
and so it is that The Messiah’s GOD given birth name
was Yehowshuwa, Yeshua, or Jeshua if you prefer
modern day english.
the “church OF england” is but a worldly pagan system
of religion, the #1 daughter of her pagan catholic mother!
simple, sad for you sean.
yet there is hope!
for Miracles do happen!
forgot to mention that those who believe the lie that
is the “imag”ined catholic and christian ‘jesus’ also
believe the multitude of other lies told thruout time
by the mother of lies catholicism and her #1 daughter
“the church OF england.
they both are but murdering, lying, world loving systems
of religion that seek but to destroy and pervert all that
is of The Truth and you are a perfect example of how
they have successfully carried out “d”evil’s plan.
thankfully there is a Living GOD, HE WHO reveals all
things and yet speaks to HIS Children. The Light that
is The Messiah yet shines brightly for those who have
“seen” and experienced The Light. and even the
darkness that is this wicked world and it’s systems
of religion can not stop The Light of Truth from brightly
shining in the hearts of those who have taken heed
unto The Call of The Only True GOD to “Come out of
her, MY people”.
those who have “seen” The Light have “Come out” of
this wicked world and it’s whorish systems of religion.
they no longer have there portion with pagan gods
such as the “imag”ined catholic/christian ‘jesus’.
All Thanks, Praise And Glory Be Unto The Only True GOD, Father of ALL!
francisco,
Do you want to have a discussion or do you want to just keep posting the same diatribes, ignoring what we say? It’s your choice.
Hi,
as far as I can see, it’s about time francisco opens his own blog somewhere where he can post to his heart’s delight over and over again and again what he would like to preach to others …
in other words, moderators here should consider putting a stop to his activity (IF it continues in this manner) on this blog … why allow him to sort of “hijack” this blog?
just a bit of “straight talk” without “diplomatic niceties”
Cheers,
Wolfgang
The letter “J” was originally an alternative version of I. Its minuscule “j” was used in the Middle Ages as a swash character to end some Roman numerals in place of i. There was an emerging distinctive use in Middle High German.[3] Petrus Ramus (d. 1572) was the first to explicitly distinguish I and J as representing separate sounds. Originally, both I and J represented /i/, /iː/, and /j/; but Romance languages developed new sounds (from former /j/ and /g/) that came to be represented as I and J; therefore, English J (from French J) has a sound value quite different from /j/.
The word ‘Jesus’, which was first “imag”ined around 1572, is the Latin form of the Greek Iesous, which in turn is the transliteration of the Hebrew Jeshua, or Joshua, or again Jehoshua, meaning “Jehovah is salvation.”
Quite simple here to see that the name ‘jesus’ was not spoken by anyone for over 1500 years after The Messiah had been “raised from among the dead”.
Simply, The Messiah’s GOD given birth Name, which was a Hebrew name, when translated into modern day english would be Jeshua. yet i prefer Yeshua for The Name given The Creator, by The Creator, remains YHWH and Jeshua(Joshua) in Hebrew is Yehowshuwa’ which was The GOD given birth Name of The Messiah.
catholicism and her #1 pagan daughter “the church OF england” were the first to “imag”ine the name ‘jesus’, a name they gave to one head
of their “imag”ined three-headed pagan ‘god’ less than 500 years past.
Since that time multilplied millions have been killed in that name, and
the spirit and conscience of most all they hold captive with their vain deceit have been “seared with a hot iron”.
Yet there is hope!
For Miracles do happen!
Hope is there would be those who heed The Call of The Only True GOD to “Come out of her, MY people”!
Those who heed The Call will “see” The Light that is The Messiah for they will have fled from the darkness that is babylon, which is this world and it’s systems of religon.
Peace, in spite of the dis-ease(no-peace) that is of this wicked world, for “the WHOLE world is under the control of the evil one” indeed and Truth……. francisco
I would agree with Wolfgang. While I’m all for open discussion on what ever theological topics someone else wishes to bring up, it seems that francisco is simply posting cut & paste “diatribes” without engaging in actual discussions with people. Of course his opening “salvo” off multiple postings all over this site (and never on topic to those actual threads) is a telling sign that he’s trying to be more of a spammer than an actual participant. Also he just did a repeat copy of his post #7 above for post #11 instead of giving a legitimate response to Sean’s #9 or Mark’s #10.