Who Is Servetus the Evangelical?
June 23rd, 2009 by Sean
A new player on the biblical unitarian field is a man who calls himself “Servetus the Evangelical.” Michael Servetus, was the incredibly brilliant medical doctor who discovered pulmonary circulation and the remarkably talented theologian who wrote De Trinitatis Erroribus (On the Errors of the Trinity) in 1531 and Christianismi Restitutio (The Restoration of Christianity) in 1553. He was immediately banished from Spain after his first book was published and he changed his name from Miguel Serveto to Michel de Villeneuve. After a time he began correspondence with the famous French reformer John Calvin who was running Geneva, Switzerland as his own utopian project. Calvin sent Servetus his famous Institutes of the Christian Religion, which Servetus promptly read and filled its margins with annotations and corrections before sending it back to Calvin. Naturally, Calvin was enraged and actually cooperated with the Catholic authorities (whom he despised) to get Servetus arrested. Fortunately, Servetus successfully escaped but then found himself on the run.
For whatever reason, he decided to attend a Sunday service in Geneva where he was immediately spotted and arrested. Even so, the prosecutor could not make a thing stick as Servetus’ command of Hebrew, Greek, Latin and the Scriptures and Christian theology were too much for him. At last, Calvin himself (also a child prodigy) faced Servetus head on. The two argued with such sophistication that none of the judges even knew what they were talking about, much less whose side had won. Nevertheless, each night, Calvin went home to his comfortable house whereas Servetus was slowly wasting away in his jail cell, being denied the basics that any jail would normally have. At long last Calvin convinced the jury that Servetus was a heretic for teaching that God was the Father alone. They led Servetus up to the stake and commanded him one last time, “Confess that Jesus is the Eternal Son.” To this Servetus replied, “I confess that Jesus is the Son of the Eternal God” and forthwith the flames were lit and a brilliant theologian, physician, and scholar was martyred for refusing to accept the onerous and obtuse doctrine of the eternal generation of the Son of God. (Those interested in further reading about Michael Servetus should read Out of the Flames by the Goldstones).
So, who is this new Servetus? He has produced a tract explaining his beliefs. Here is a short quotation from it’s conclusion
…the New Testament does not teach that Jesus was God but that God sent Jesus, God was with Jesus, God was in Jesus, and God raised Jesus from the dead. The traditional view that Jesus is God is based mostly on only a few biblical texts. Most of these texts have grammatical problems, and Bible versions often differ as to whether they call Jesus “God.” Some are properly interpreted to mean God was in Christ. In sum, Jesus was not God but a virgin-born man who endured temptation, suffering, shame, trial, and death to provide salvation, and God vindicated and exalted Him for it. Praise Jesus and His God!
Immediately after this concluding paragraph we read the following tantalizing statement:
Servetus the Evangelical has been a devout Evangelical all of his adult life and is a former Trinitarian. At this website, he will provide a clue to his identity on the first day of every month until late 2011. Then, on the 500th anniversary of the birth of Michael Servetus—who was burnt at the stake for alleged heresies—this author will reveal his identity in a new book that tells the intriguing story about his quest for the real Jesus.
So, naturally, my questions are (1) Who is Servetus the Evangelical? and (2) Do I know him? Here are the clues he has divulged so far:
- 10/08 Very few people know the identity of Servetus the Evangelical.
- 11/08 Servetus the Evangelical is a male citizen of the United States of America.
- 12/08 Servetus the Evangelical has been a born-again Evangelical Christian all of his adult life.
- 1/09 Servetus the Evangelical started attending Sunday School in his youth.
- 2/09 Servetus the Evangelical was born again when he was a teenager.
- 3/09 Servetus the Evangelical’s Sunday School teacher led him to Christ.
- 4/09 Servetus the Evangelical has been a Bible student since his teens.
- 5/09 Servetus the Evangelical was water baptized as an adult.
Check out his website as ServetusTheEvangelical.com. He has a book for sale and a number of free articles.
Sean,
I had a look at the website … and am not impressed at all. The whole reasoning given for the use of a pseudonym and “can you guess his identity?” game makes one wonder what the real purpose of the “hiding game” is …
Is persecution of Christians in the USA this bad, that a person feels the need to hide in anonymity and to keep their beliefs about Christ a secret within their church and the evangelical community? I am amazed …
Would one not almost be constantly forced to somehow “deny” one’s true beliefs concerning Christ? Would the words of Jesus Christ about “But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven (Mt 10,33)” apply in such situation?
Somewhat sad after reading the person’s explanations …
Wolfgang
perhaps he is afraid of being kicked out of his home church?
perhaps he works for a Christian college and is afraid to lose his job?
perhaps he is just having some fun with us?
I don’t know, but your point is well taken that he is tiptoeing perilously close to the “deny me and I’ll deny you” warning that Jesus gave us.
It seems rather gimmicky to me, like he’s trying to generate attention and hype for his book.
It kind of reminds me of the big “mystery” and hype back in 2000 or so, when an inventor said he had come up with something that would revolutionize transportation as we know it. When he finally unveiled it - the Segway - people kind of went, “Is that it?” And transportation has not been revolutionized by that novelty item.
Still, it’s nice to see someone else that has the sense to see the truth about who Jesus is.
My guess … James White.
Wolfgang,
How do we know that your name is really Wolfgang?!? Seems like an awesome pseudonym to me!
As they say … “on the internet, know one knows you are really a dog” …
Seriously, I think this is pretty harmless. I don’t see how putting information on a website is “denying Christ.”
Tim,
Wolfgang’s real name is Wolfgang. He lives in Germany where that is not an uncommon name. I believe Mozart’s first name was Wolfgang, right?
Check the ip address registry - maybe you’ll get a hint
is it you Victor? lol
Hi Tim,
You could check my website and have a look at the “contact” / “imprint” page where you will find my postal address and Wolfgang as my real first name. As Sean mentioned, it is a rather common German first name.
I am not talking about putting information on a website, I am talking about what the person mentions in regards to hiding their true beliefs from the other believers in the congregation and perhaps other “evangelical” places because of fear of persecution.
Now, what would you call it when a person believes Jesus is NOT God, yet gives everybody around the impression - perhaps even affirms in conversation — that they did believe Jesus IS God in accordance with the particular church’s creed?
Hi Sean,
Indeed, Mozart’s first names were “Wolfgang Amadeus”. A famous German poet’s name was “Johann Wolfgang Goethe” …
When we lived in Bonn years ago, there were about a dozen “Wolfgang Schneider” listed in the phone directory as living in the city of Bonn … and probably a few hundred if not thousand “Wolfgang” with various other family names.
Cheers,
Wolfgang
Well, I guess facetiousness is not a good thing on a web discussion!!
I think you are assuming that “Servetus” is going around in real life telling people that he is a trinitarian (maybe I am missing something). If that is the case, then I would agree with you. But, I’m not assuming that is true.
However, I don’t see how this is any different than anonymous pamphleteers or the underground church. Christians and China, the Middle East and other hostile places are not running around saying “I am a Christian!”; nor are they saying “Long live Chairman Mao/Mohammad/etc!”
I think that the important point (to me anyway) is that the message is getting out in yet another channel.
Burning someone at a stake for not believing as ‘we’ do, whoever
that group is, isn’t a part of the gospel is it? If they are a part of
the gospel, ther’s a part of them that wasn’t.
Debates, OK, We can understand. May the truth win. I hope we’ve
come a lot further.
No lie is of the truth, and one who stands on a lie and teaches it
should be known as a heretic if in fact it is so.
But burning such a one at a stake?, Doesn’t that show us that someone else had something wrong, if not with their doctrine,
certainly something wrong with them.
This one who calls himself Servetus and seems to be coming in
his similitude….who’s glory does he seek? Is he coming in his own?
Is it time to whet our swords, men?
I found lots from Micah 7 that speaks to our times.
It’s the first 7 verses. See also Mt. 10:36.
Micah 7:8
Rejoice not against me, O mine enemy: when I fall, I shall arise;
when I sit in darkness, the Lord shall be a light unto me.
That verse was on the hand of Christian as he reached for his sword near the very last of his battle with Apollyon.
Even after this battle Christian had to go through a valley where he
came close to what seemed like the depths of hell. There were voices that came up behind him such that he even thought that they were his own, as if such blasphemies began with his own thinking.
After suffering this for quite some time, he began to hear the word,
and was encouraged to catch up to the one who was ahead of him,
for by now he considered that he was not alone in this valley.
Though he called out to the one who was ahead, the one who was ahead did not hear him as he thought that he himself was alone.
Yet when the day broke he praised him who turned darkness into
dawn. Now he saw the Ditch more clearly and also the Quagmire
which I had thought to resemble boiling mud. The way to walk was
between the two. He also saw other evils but they were far away
now because of the light of day, yet they were revealed to him by
the word given in Job 12:22.
He had yet to experience the second part of the Valley of the Shadow of Death, which was even worse, yet he confessed the substance of Job 29:3 in the present tense.
Just curious why you think it’s James White. I checked out the statement of Faith at Alpha and Omega Ministries and it’s very explicitly trinitarian. Just wondering what about him makes him a strong candidate in your opinion.
Thanks
James White? The guy who has about 20 debates pro-trinity? Yeah right.
Dustin
i’ll confess its me guys…NOT!!
let’s hope its some big cheese name…
here are the list of clues so far:
10/08 Very few people know the identity of Servetus the Evangelical.
11/08 Servetus the Evangelical is a male citizen of the United States of America.
12/08 Servetus the Evangelical has been a born-again Evangelical Christian all of his adult life.
1/09 Servetus the Evangelical started attending Sunday School in his youth.
2/09 Servetus the Evangelical was born again when he was a teenager.
3/09 Servetus the Evangelical’s Sunday School teacher led him to Christ.
4/09 Servetus the Evangelical has been a Bible student since his teens.
5/09 Servetus the Evangelical was water baptized as an adult.
6/09 Servetus the Evangelical has a PhD.
7/09 Some people call Servetus the Evangelical “The Professor”.
interesting to note he has a PhD…that narrows it down considerably
James White has many Ph.D.s …
Somehow my “” tags got filtered out …
Never mind … I will stop promoting the sarcastic / facetious James White theory …
Tim,
it was a humorous suggestion…at least I got a chuckle out of it
Sean,
About a week ago I noticed you and your bloggers guessing on the identity of Servetus the Evangelical. I sent you an email that perhaps you didn’t receive. I know the fellow in question and his real name. There are good reasons he does not want to reveal his real name until 2011 and I’ve promised not to break his trust. He plans to work with us at that time. If you’d like more background, drop me a line or give me a call. –Ken
I think he’s from Atlanta.
Speaking of James White, he just posted on the subject here-
http://www.aomin.org/aoblog/
Take care,
G
Ken,
I had received your email and read it with excitement…just haven’t been able to reply to it yet…do forgive my delay
‘Servetus the Evangelical’s’ claim to fame is that you MAY have seen him on TV. This puts him in a category with all those dubious products advertised ‘as seen on TV.’ If the products were more saleable, you would see them in stores. He does not say his name is a household word. This seems to be an effort to create an artificial buzz over an author who would otherwise be overlooked.
Fredericka
http://thriceholy.net
I’m just really appallaed that this guy is currently ‘within’ the mainstream Evangelical community and isnt beleiveing the creeds /statements of faith he is supposed to. I am a Trinitarian, he isn’t but to take a wage, position and influence and deny a key element of the faith as understood ny mainstream orthodox Christianity, isn’t ‘fun’ its deception and really wrong.
Sean,
so who is it?
Xavier,
I have no idea.
John,
Did it ever occur to you that perhaps he changed his belief slowly over time? What I find appalling is the excluding intolerance of “Christians” to even open this question for discussion. If you question the dogma in most evangelical churches they show you the door immediately. (At least they aren’t burning us at the stake anymore.) The Trinity has got to be the fattest sacred cow of Christendom. Quite honestly, between James White’s ravings, Fredericka’s attacks, and your disgust I would say it is no wonder Servetus is in the closet. Evangelicalism is a “creedal” faith…it does not seek truth or intellectual humility, no, it is a faith which constantly assumes it is right even in the face of evidence to the contrary. The question is not what does the Bible teach, but what does Westminster say or Nicea. In this regard evangelicals and Catholics are rather similar.
I feel sympathetic towards this man and his wishes for his identity to remain anonymous. There have been many instances in my life where it has been easier and sometimes more beneficial to keep my views about who Jesus is on the DL. Of course, if questioned I would not have a moments hesitation to reveal my views on this subject matter. I am still not convinced that this is denying anyone. Besides, the actual Michael Servetus and John Calvin both used pseudonym’s to conceal their identities while publishing books. The pseudonym is also a great tool for stirring up interest among evangelicals who would otherwise never even consider the question is Jesus really God? As to who the author is, your guess is as good as mine. Although I do not think it is James White.
Hi everyone and God bless!!!! I had the privilage to hear about this in fellowship last night and it intrigued me and everyone here makes very good points so I decided to make my own comments. #1- in my opinion this man is not denying Jesus as some of you may think because everything he is saying is about who Jesus is “not God” which is the truth that is not denying Jesus (he is simply denying us his real identity for now)
#2- We all have a purpose especially when you are God’s child you live because God lets you live and your purpose for God is to spread the truth of the Gospel that Jesus taught, maybe this man is not revieling himself until the day he stated because God said so.
#3- We may not be hung or burned these days for our beliefs but we are pursecuted for our beliefs especially when the “majority” does not believe the same truth’s.
#4 This man is researching and speaking about the truth which God wants us to do it really does not make a difference who he is it is not going to change the truth he is speaking when we do find out who he is
#5 And maybe this man wants as many people to know the message for God and Jesus before he reveil’s himself because if he made himself known right now there will not be as many people hearing the message he is trying to spread because the way he is doing this is mysterious and most humans love mysteries (we are waiting for the day God reveil’s his mysteries).
#6 When he does reveil himself he may be killed (it is very possible) just because we don’t hang and burn people we do kill in other ways and the truth will not be known to as many people if he reveils it now.
Sorry about any misspellings and like I stated these are my opinions about this man
Stacey
God bless
James White is a model Calvinist … because he believes that he was chosen by God specifically and had no say in the matter, his interpretation of Scripture must therefore be without error. And he clearly lives out his theology. So it it only natural that he can make claims about others’ beliefs being heretical.
I’ve heard White on several occasions, most recently the “Unbelievable” show in the UK (BTW - James White will be debating against conditional immortality on next week’s “Unbelievable”show; it should be worth the listen). I find him to be pompous, condescending and self-absorbed. He appeals to his own authority without hesitation (”have you read my book?”).
There is room for intepretation in the Calvinist / Arminian debate to most clear-thinking people, but not so for the likes of James White. The couple that he was debating made this exact point, and he jumped all over them about how there was, in fact, no room for debate and his interpretation was the only one that was correct.
Sean, your reply to John in post #30 above was AWESOME! And I agree whole-heartedly!
Main-stream evangelicals and catholics should really just admit that when it comes to the Trinity, you’re just suppose to blindly follow and never ask questions! It is a “do as you’re told and we’ll save you’re soul” mentality. Here sheep, be good and have some more hay!
Tim,
Although I am an Unbelievable fan I did not catch the show with James White. However, I couldn’t disagree more about how James white treats his opponents. I have listened to him debate Dan Barker, Robert Funk, Bart Ehrman, Greg Stafford, Robert Sabin, and quite a few others and he always treats his opponent in a Christian manner. Sometimes, especially atheists, say the most unbelievably disrespectful things and Dr. White holds his cool through it all. Now I do agree with you that Calvinism is a bizarre and harsh theology whose fruit may be seen in the Servetus incident, but as to the character of Dr. White I couldn’t disagree more. Then again, perhaps in the debate you listened to Dr. White may have been unkind, but like I said, I didn’t listen to it…yet.
My assessment may have been a little harsh …
Hi Guys,
I listened to the program yesterday with James White and the opposing side (Roger & Faith). I thought James wasn’t harsh at all. If anything, the other two participants were the ones who threw the “low blows” at James (imo). Anyhow, just chiming in on this.
This is not the right thread for this probably, but since we are talking about the Unbelievable show and James White, I thought that I would ask it here.
I believe that I heard in Saturday’s Unbelievable episode on Hell that James White said that the six hours that the “god-man” spent on the cross paid the penalty for sin. As usual, his explanation was incoherent and incomprehensible. However, I had never heard this before. Isn’t the penalty for sin eternal torment (according to non-conditionalists)?
How can six hours of earthly pain pay the penalty for our sins?
Both the issues of the trinity and eternal torment revolve around this and I have not heard a coherent explanation from anyone. Rational monotheism and conditional immortality provide the only simple, Biblical explanation for how Jesus’ death paid the penalty for our sins.
Excellent point Tim. For Jesus to have paid the penalty for sin (assuming the penalty for sin is eternal torment) then he would have to be eternally tormented. This exposes the crux of the matter. When doctrines collide like this we have to either get out the duct tape and patch things up by saying, “well it’s all a mystery” or else we have to rethink one or both of the conflicting doctrines
Also, just to let everyone know I did get in touch with Servetus the Evangelical and recorded a show with him for Truth Matters. I’m presently in the editing process, which for this show is more extensive because it involves disguising my guest’s voice. I’ll let you know when it goes up on the Truth Matters website.
Tim,
you write
while “rational monotheism” does make sense, I have no clue what is meant with “conditional immortality”, and I certainly find no Biblical basis for what the expression “conditional immortality” might mean …
I understand the Bible to teach that all humans are mortal, and that God alone possesses immortality. Thus, I have no clue who else supposedly has immortality, even if it claimed that it is “conditional” …
In light of these rather simple biblical truths, could you clarify, who then in your view has “conditional immortality” ?
Cheers,
Wolfgang
Sean,
can my above post perhaps be placed in a better location on this blog, seeing that it really has nothing to do with the “Servetus the Evangelist” topic here ? I don’t know how to open a thread or how to move a topic to a different thread.
I’d appreciate if you could help me in this matter ….. afterwards of course one could delete these 2 posts here in this thread
Cheers,
Wolfgang
Wolfgang,
Those that are immortal after the resurrection.
Tim
Sean,
I cannot wait for that Truth Matters episode … just curious, did you have to sign some sort of agreement to not reveal anything about this person? Did you call him / her on a public pay phone?
-Tim
so who is he Sean?
I believe Jesus is God because there is such a thing as allegory.
There is such a thing as the description of one under the image
of another.
Isn’t there a sense in which Jesus is Michael? There should be a
certain context about the matter. Michael is the arch angel who has
been known to fight for or defend God’s people. When he resists
the principalities and powers of darkness, it seems he fights the
devil himself, for the followers of Satan are characteristic of the evil one who led them away from the truth.
Xavier,
I have no idea who he is. I didn’t ask his name. Ken Westby has said that Servetus has very good reasons for remaining anonymous. I’m not sure what those reasons are but I’m sure we’ll all find out in due time.
Tim,
you answered my question about who those were with “conditional immortality” with:
so then, since their immortality is a conditional immortality, on what condition are they immortal after the resurrection? it sounds like they might lose their immortality IF they no longer fulfill the necessary condition ?
I continue to think that the Scriptures do not teach anything like a “conditional immortality”, but speak of “mortality” or “immortality”, and that “mortality” will put on “immortality” (cp 1Co 15). However, I do not recall encountering “conditional immortality” anywhere in the Scriptures
Cheers,
Wolfgang
Tim
When I read the book of Revelation I remember seeing great conflict between the saints and Satan along with great tribulations, temptations, testings and trials.
Then I saw the devil bound as if it was all over. But then he was loosed leaving me to wonder if it’s ever really over.
We have life in Christ. We have the everlasting gospel of our salvation. We have hope in God. We have overcome some things.
We have the word we have received. We have had victory in Christ.
We have had some trouble. We have had some testing. We have
had some trials…But is it ever really going to be over?
Now that firey pit burns forever and ever, yet I wonder if the devil
will ever be loosed again.
Sometimes I wonder if our eternal life is always conditional. If we believe in the Lord Jesus we shall be saved. I believe that is always
true and will remain true.
Sometimes I think of eternal life as something that has me, rather
than something I posess. Maybe it’s better that way.
Hi everyone,
I was just wondering what are the best books on the unitarian view of God? I have this book by “Servetus the Evangelical” on the way. Are there any others you would recommend?
Hi
it seems as if folks here are equating “eternal life” with “immortality” ?
when the scriptures speak of man receiving eternal life based on the condition of believing on Christ, what does that have to do with “conditional immortality”?
one might perhaps say that there is something like a “conditonal salvation”, if the person forfeits their promised salvation by not meeting the condition upon which it was promised. But I would say there is no such thing as “conditional immortality”, for one is either mortal or immortal …
Is a person not still a mortal being, even though they believe on Christ and have received the promise of eternal life?
Cheers,
Wolfgang
Wolfgang,
You are making it too complicated. We do not have immortality now. Those raised from the dead will have immortality then. There must be a condition somewhere in the middle (unless you think there is a lottery).
There is no “litmus test” or “set of rules” that I can enumerate, if that is what you are trying to get me to say.
If we live our lives as followers of Jesus, all I can say is that I have faith that God will raise me up on the last day.
Tim
Hi Tim,
thank you for your note …. it seems to me that the expression “conditional immortality” is in and of itself already incorrect and non-applicable to what you are saying. As I mentioned before, people are either mortal or they have received immortality. But they are at no time “conditionally immortal”, are they?
You speak of a condition in order to be counted among those who will be raised / changed immortal to receive eternal life …. but, please note, this has nothing to do with a “conditional immortality” since the condition “is in effect / will have effect” while those people are mortals, not while they are immortal.
I would suggest to drop the term “conditional immortality” altogether because it is the same sort of an impossibility as the expression “triune” in the trinity discussions.
Cheers,
Wolfgang
Wolfgang
Admittedly, your argument gives me pause to consider. I would agree with Tim that we strive to be a part of the first resurrection for it would appear it is to those whom this “immortality” will be granted. My words, not Tim’s. But is it “conditional immortality?” Seems to open the old OSAS debate in a whole new way. Could it be when Christ speaks of granting eternal life to those who repent and believe in coming Kingdom, planted within them are the seeds of immortality.
“I would suggest to drop teh term “conditional immmortality”
Perhaps you are right. But can we who are mortal become immortal without the “new birth?” Not sure one can receive immortality while still in this mortal body just as the natural cannot see or understand the spiritual. Perhaps the term “being born again” so causually tossed around today is inappropriate for what takes place when we do repent and believe. Can’t say we undergo so inner miracle at that time which makes us immortal. For we are still fleshly. We have an awareness when we sin, perhaps there are times we sin willfully. Is that willfullness to sin make our future eternal life “conditional.” If we never confess this sin or that sin, are we prone to be part of the first resurrection? Sorry to sound confused, but your words again, have given me pause to consider my own judgment regarding the teaching of “conditional immortality.” Perhaps as you suggest, those words should be dropped from our vocabulary with “triune.”
Sean
The war, as it is truly a war regarding the trinity taught by one side and the One God doctrine taught by the other as you know has been raging since before Nicea. Perhaps Satan seeks to turn our attention away from the Messiah who did come, who taught the true gospel of the Kingdom, died and rose again. He is as crafty as a snake in the grass awaiting the passing of a unknowing rat. Perhaps he seeks to divide and conquer. Surely he has divided and thus a “different gospel” as forewarned by Paul is being preached from our pulpits. I agree, what is being believed and taught is not the Word, but the Westminster Creed or creeds in general Can there ever be a unity of thought and teaching as there was when the apostles taught. Thankfully, although late in life, I have learned the truth as taught by those who believer there is only one God and him only shall we serve.
The term “conditional immortality” was coined to distinguish it from “innate immortality.” historically, many mainstream Christians have held that man is innately immortal and is destined to live eternally either in heaven or hell. In contrast, the doctrine of conditional immortality says that man can only be made immortal on the condition of accepting Jesus Christ and his gospel.
Here is a web page that discusses the historical aspect of the two opposing doctrines, and the many historical theologians who believed in conditional immortality:
http://www.specialtyinterests.net/champions_of_conditional_immortality.html
Mark C.,
well … seems like both expressions are assuming that “immortality” is assumed to be achieved even prior to a human’s death ? The one theory saying that a human is somehow immortal from birth (”innate immortality”), the other theory claiming that a person fulfilling the condition of accepting Christ is “immortal” from that moment on?
But, even this second assumption would not make this “immortality” itself to actually be a “conditional immortality”, rather it claims that “the process of becoming immortal” is conditional ….
It remains that speaking of a “conditional immortality” is actually an illogical, self-contradictory expression, seeing that
(a) man is a mortal being, and remains so until
(b) he receives immortality either with the resurrection (the dead prior to the Lord’s coming) or change (the living at and after the Lord’s coming), which immortality will not be lost and this can’t be “conditional”.
Cheers,
Wolfgang
Mark C.
Thanks for the website, a very eye opening one indeed. We live a life devoted to Christ and to His God, when we die, we die with the assurance of rising, the mortal having put on immortality.
John 17:2,3
As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
To receive Christ is to receive eternal life. Without him we can not
know the Father.
Can we lose him who said he will never leave us?
Didn’t I read about Job how he began to lose the fear of the Lord
and confess that his way was hid, much like a man who finds himself in dark dispair because he went in a way not good and did
not turn from it till he found out that he was bound for the judgment of God? Job retained his gifts of wisdom, which gave evidence that the giver was still with him, yet he seemed to be lost
and without hope.
What man is there that is without hope but the man who knows he
has sinned willfully and has nothing to look forward to but the judgment of God? He that has sinned in some way he must simply bear, might have hope even in his despair if he keeps that which
he first received of the word of God, that which was in the beginning of his journey, the first revelation of God, knowing that
he is, and that he is the rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
When Job met with the Lord, though there was rebuke, there
was mercy, and deliverance. Job returned to God, finding that which
he had lost. Being apprehended of God, he came to the place of
life or death when facing the rebukes that were against him. Choosing life over death, he was given a new start.
Job had to hold on to wisdom, (the fear of the Lord being the beginning of it) as we must hold to the message of the cross
no matter what. It’s never for nothing.
I read about a man in chains, held in an iron cage
He used to be a professor of the faith, now a sage
But in his pitiful condition, for he knew the mistakes he made
In letting loose the desires of the flesh, mercy came to fade
Nothing for him but judgment to come, no repentance left
For he had his chances and let them pass, no longer his gift
I read about this in the Pilgrim’s Progress, troubled me a lot
For in it I wondered about myself, and what might be got
If a man continues in sin when he knows it’s wrong
A worsened state than he’s ever been, his future and fortune gone
conditional immortality is the belief that immortality depends on resurrection
natural immortality is the belief that immortality is unconditional (everybody is immortal the only question is where he/she will go)
Randy,
regarding comment #52, …amen
The Truth Matters episode with Servetus the Evangelical is now available at http://truthmattersradio.wordpress.com/2009/08/26/the-restitution-of-jesus-christ-with-servetus-the-evangelical/
Wow, talking about the evolution of a topic!
To get back to Servetus the Evangelical…I like this initiative! I sense that we might be surprised at his identity. It surprised me how quickly some of the guys cried fowl! Chill, guys! For this person to have appeared on television on the “Historical Jesus,” would already have identified him as one “confessing the [true] Christ;” no such thing as denying Christ, for crying out loud. Knock it off, already!
This work, in my opinion, is such a denunciation of Calvinism. I also had a look at the article on aomin.org. In that article the author of this book is branded “apostate,” “Watchtoweresque,” etc. It reminded me of Frederich Nietzche who said, “Be careful, lest in fighting the dragon, you become the dragon.” Whoever wrote this malicious defammatory article on aomin.org surpassed even the Watchtower in demonizing “Servetus the Evangelical” as “apostate.” Oh, do they have innocent blood on their hands! Of all the infamous religious heroes, why pick John Calvin the Murderer? Even Joseph Smith has a cleaner slate than Calvin has.
Anyway, I have my guess…the professor from Atlanta, Georgia, maybe? Is he making us BUZZ? What an excellent work in memory of a Christian martyr. One, who, had Hebrews 11 been written several centuries later, would have made the list of “a cloud of faithful witnesses” perhaps?
Jaco
Dear Jaco,
Having interviewed the anonymous Servetus myself I can guarantee that he has no association with Anthony Buzzard or Atlanta Bible College. He lives elsewhere though I am not at liberty to say where.
Sean,
So you know “he/she” [?] identity?
nope…just his phone number
With Google today, that is all one needs is a phone number. Within minutes one can have name, address, and more.
he’s unlisted
[Daniel] - Just discovered this Servetus the Evangelical today and we are glad to see yet another student of God’s Word accept Jesus as he truly is - God’s son. We arrived at this truth near the 10th anniversary of our new life in Christ. While hesitant initially to share our views with our brethren in fear of persecution, we have of late “come out of the closet.” Living in a small community has been difficult at times but some of our trinitarian friends still love us as brethren . . .
[Michelle] . . . only the ones who known us for a long time. While others, they go around and tell others to stay away from us. I see church leader do not want you to question them when thing don’t make sense. Have are hard time in churches today because they all seem to focus on Paul, not on Christ. When I quote from Jesus words against Paul words they see the difference but they make excuses for him by saying “he meant this, . . .” You have to read between the lines. Well I don’t read between the lines. Another one is Jesus needs Paul to explain what Jesus meant to say. I mother of six children and it very hard to find churches who give respect to God as his son Jesus did. Are we not to follow Jesus foot steps? God words says even child can understand his ways. So I asked my two older children to read Jesus word to focus on the red words tell me who do you think he is? Without me and my husband influence. So they came back they said that he is God son. We asked how did you come up with that? Well they just said , “He pray to the father, and the father answer, he asked the father for strength. Jesus has a mother and dad {God} and Jesus is the result. God brought his son so us humans can understand. Jesus has all Mary genes and has all of God genes and he can pick what ever he wants to put into his son. So this little human is his own person. Please don’t forget that Jesus was taught and learn obedience like rest of us do. Jesus always gave thanks to God and he said, their is only one that is good that is God. That God created the world. People are saying that he created it when he said, that God created it. At the end of this letter follow what Jesus follow that is his father and make sure that you test every word to Jesus words. On that note; May you see new thing in word God Bless You. Love in Jesus Christ your brethren.
It’s a sad commentary on the church to think that a well-known scholar could hide any denial of Jesus as God for any length of time. If he is a member of a church, it’s even more of an indictment on the evangelical community. Christianity at its core is Christocentric.
MarieP,
But, what if early Christianity was non-trinitarian as almost all scholars agree. If this were the case then shouldn’t we as defenders of the apostolic faith be sounding the alarm? The true shame is that this historical question is not even open for debate amongst Christians, especially in evangelical colleges. If one even dares question the issue an immediate witch trial precedes which ends in the termination of the truth-seeker.
Everyone just sluffs off the matter by saying that this issue was “dealt with” at Nicaea, Constantinope, and Chalcedon. But, alas, Nicea is 300 hundred years after Christ and there is a marked difference between the language and thinking they used to fight out the christological battle of the 4th century with how Jesus and the Apostles talked. Isn’t it fascinating that the issue about which the early controversies focused was whether or not Gentiles (and Jews) needed to keep Torah? Why weren’t the Jews up in arms over a redefinition of their single-individual God? Could it be that was because neither Jesus nor the Apostles taught the Trinity?
Sean,
You wrote:
“But, what if early Christianity was non-trinitarian as almost all scholars agree.”
What scholars would these be? It’s one thing to say that the early church’s theology was more biblical than systematic, and therefore they didn’t have the concise definition that we have today. It’s quite another to say they denied the Trinity altogether.
“Why weren’t the Jews up in arms over a redefinition of their single-individual God?”
Actually, they were!
Mark 2
5 When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, ‘Son, your sins are forgiven you.’
6 And some of the scribes were sitting there and reasoning in their hearts, 7 ‘Why does this Man speak blasphemies like this? Who can forgive sins but God alone?’
8 But immediately, when Jesus perceived in His spirit that they reasoned thus within themselves, He said to them, ‘Why do you reason about these things in your hearts? 9 Which is easier, to say to the paralytic, ‘Your sins are forgiven you,’ or to say, ‘Arise, take up your bed and walk’? 10 But that you may know that the Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins”—He said to the paralytic, 11 ‘I say to you, arise, take up your bed, and go to your house.’”
John 8
57 Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?”
58 Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”
59 Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.
And actually, it wasn’t a “redefinition” but a further revelation of what had already been pointed to in the Old Testament. The language used in the prophecies of the Messiah could only be used for God.
Plus, you have the book of Revelation:
Rev. 1
To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood, 6 and has made us kings and priests to His God and Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.
7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.
8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”
Rev. 22
12 “And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”
14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. 15 But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.
16 “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star.”
Compare with:
Isaiah 41
6 “ Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel,
And his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts:
‘ I am the First and I am the Last;
Besides Me there is no God.
John 12:49
For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
John 14:24
He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father’s which sent me.
the 2 above verses says that God Commanded Jesus what to say. Just as he did with all the prophets
Luke 4
18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed
me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, 19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord
this shows that the authority was giving to him and he had no powers and it was God working through Him
John 14:28
Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
this single verse spoken by Jesus tells us that the doctrine of the trinity is false
Romans 8:17
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
this says that Jesus is the same being as us, the joint heirs as all the children of God.
if one of the three persons in the trinity were not equal to one of the others that would make the greater one the only God and the lessor not a God but the greater still could command the lessor to do the work of or speak for the greater which is exactly the relationship of the Father and the Son
robert,
It’s interesting you bring up John 12…
John quotes Isiah 6 in verses 37-40 and then says,
41 These things Isaiah said when he saw His glory and spoke of Him.
Who did Isaiah see and speak of in Isaiah 6?
robert,
You are reading into the text. How does Jesus pointing out that He speaks the Father’s words prove that He is not God? Remember that He was humble. Quite frankly, if Jesus is not God, He said some of the most arrogant things a mere human could ever say! See the verses I cited for Sean, for example.
I will ask you this: if Jesus is not God, then why are the children of God going to worship Him forever? I thought God was jealous for His own worship and praise…
Marie
there is nothing in the scriptures that even suggest that Jesus was God, it takes people like you who twist the scripture to form such an conclusion when it is perfectly clear that Jesus didnt think he was God, that God didnt think Jesus was God nor any of his followers. he says plain and clear that he is a man, a son of God that has only been giving authority and could have done nothing by himself. for anyone to believe in the trinity it requires for them to call God and Jesus a liar. God doesnt fear death because he couldnt, can not ever die. you better thank God that Jesus was not God.The power of God is what you see spoken of by prophets which is the same power giving to Jesus to do GOD’S WILL. Many has had this power but they were not God either
we will worship him as our king in the kingdom which is giving by the act of God
we worship God by doing the things that please God that includes worshiping His Son who glorified God above all things even his own life.
robert,
You do realize that God alone is to be worshiped, right?
Exodus 34:14
“For you shall worship no other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God”
When people worship Jesus, are they committing idolatry? If not., why?
Going back to your question of roles within the Trinity, it’s like in marriage. A wife is supposed to submit to her husband. Does that make her any less human than her husband? I think not.
Hi MarieP
They are committing idolatry, IF they worship Jesus as God …. they are NOT committing idolatry IF they worship him as something other than God (such as worship him as the Messiah, the king, the Son of God, etc)
To “worship” does NOT automatically mean “to WORSHIP AS GOD” … I “worship” my granddaughter as “a most wonderful girl”, does that make me an idolator? NO! My “worship” of my granddaughter has NOTHING to do with my worship of God.
Cheers,
Wolfgang
Very well put Wolfgang
Marie wrote
“Going back to your question of roles within the Trinity, it’s like in marriage. A wife is supposed to submit to her husband. Does that make her any less human than her husband? I think not. ”
No it makes her less than a man, meaning she is not equal if she submits. Same if the man submits, he is less than a man too
If Jesus submits to a higher being than He is not a God.
God submits to no one or nothing thus making him GOD.
Hebrews 2:9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
Could a God be made? If so then by who?
Jesus was 100% man,0% God and Became 100% a Son of God, will Be 100% my King in the Kingdom.
Wolfgang,
Actually, I don’t use the term worship for anything other than God because the Bible does not allow for the worship of anything but God. Can you point to me where the Bible allows us to “worship” anything other than God?
No one has responded to the Isaiah 6/John 12 question. Whose glory did Isaiah see? Whose glory did John say that he saw? What had been the response of Isaiah and the angels to this glorious figure?
Revelation 3.9
MarieP,
I will respond to your rebuttal when I have the time.
grace & peace
~sean
robert,
“No it makes her less than a man, meaning she is not equal if she submits.”
You really believe that? I mean, really? I thought in Christ there was neither male nor female (both are equally sinful and both are equally forgiven).
As to Hebrews 2:9, please read it again in its context
Hebrews
5 For He has not put the world to come, of which we speak, in subjection to angels. 6 But one testified in a certain place, saying:
“What is man that You are mindful of him,
Or the son of man that You take care of him?
7 You have made him a little lower than the angels;
You have crowned him with glory and honor,
And set him over the works of Your hands.
8 You have put all things in subjection under his feet.”
For in that He put all in subjection under him, He left nothing that is not put under him. But now we do not yet see all things put under him. 9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone.
10 For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. 11 For both He who sanctifies and those who are being sanctified are all of one, for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren, 12 saying:
“ I will declare Your name to My brethren;
In the midst of the assembly I will sing praise to You.”[c]
13 And again:
“ I will put My trust in Him.”
And again:
“Here am I and the children whom God has given Me.”
14 Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
It does not say He was MADE. It says He was made a little lower than the angels for His suffering and death. And then it says that all things were made for Him and by Him.
Again, this is the One who said “Before Abraham was, I AM” This is the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End.
John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.
3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men.
5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
…
14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
The Light does shine in the darkness still, and the darkness still does not comprehend it. Jesus is the Word, God in the flesh, as John so clearly says.
Sean,
Revelation 3:9 is variously translated as:
“…indeed I will make them come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you” NKJV
“…I will make them come and bow down at your feet, and make them know that I have loved you.” NASB
“…I will make them come and fall down at your feet and acknowledge that I have loved you.” NIV
Again, context. What are these people doing? They are worshiping and acknowledging that Jesus loved the Christians! It does not say they are worshiping the Christians. Same concept as 1 Cor. 14:25- “And thus the secrets of his heart are revealed; and so, falling down on his face, he will worship God and report that God is truly among you.”
John 12 38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
this quote is from Isaiah 53 which does speak of a prophecy of the coming of Jesus with his purpose
Who hath believed our report [1] and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed?
John 12 40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
this quote is from Isaiah 6
10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.
2 quotes from 2 different subjects 1 being quote so you could understand where the power comes from that Jesus is possessed by
41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory(saw GODS glory Isaiah 6), and spake of him( spoke of Isaiah’s vision of Jesus isaiah 53).
if you took the time to read all the bible instead of going down a list that can be twisted then you might come to a true understanding
now answer my questions with clear verses , not twisted verses
MarieP,
Actually it does say they are worshiping the Christians. Jesus is going to make these people (who are of the synagogue of Satan) worship the Philadelphian saints. Obviously the translators didn’t like this so they translated it “bow down” or “fall down” but it is precisely the same word translated “worship” in reference to Jesus. I don’t mean to interrupt your conversation with Wolfgang, but I just wanted to clarify. The word is προσκυνεω proskuneo if you’d like to look it up in a Lexicon. The vindication of Jesus’ love for his saints is that these people worship at their feet. Worship does not imply that the person is a god obviously, it is merely a means of paying respect (which of course one would certainly do to God but also to humans).
“You really believe that? I mean, really? I thought in Christ there was neither male nor female (both are equally sinful and both are equally forgiven).”
you are the one that used gender to make them 2 different beings not me. plus gave one a higher role therefore making one less than the other.
“Jesus is the Word, God in the flesh, as John so clearly says.”
Jesus is not the Word, He is the first to recieve the Word in the flesh. the Word is the Power of God when He gives a command or Gives understanding through Gods Holy Spirit. Jesus received this at his baptism after he proved his Faith in God. We also can become the Word in the Flesh because Jesus said to ask His God in the name of the Son and he would send us it.
Marie,
I would argue that it doesn’t matter how you personally (or me or Wolfgang) use this term, but how the Bible does. Sean has already provided you a verse where Christians will be “worshiped”, that is somebody will bow down before them. You tried to explain this away by suggesting that God is worshiped there, it just happens that the “worshiping” is being done near the Christians. I must admit, an ingenious idea, but one that is only designed to get you out of the trouble, if you don’t mind me saying that
I’m saying this because taken at face value, that verse says what Sean implied. The same Greek phrase, translated “worship before you” shows up in other verses too:
NASB Psalm 22:27 All the ends of the earth will remember and turn to the LORD, And all the families of the nations will worship before You.
Psalm 86:9 All nations whom You have made shall come and worship before You, O Lord, And they shall glorify Your name.
Revelation 15:4 Who will not fear you, Lord, or glorify your name? For you alone are holy. All the nations will come and worship before you, for your righteous acts have been revealed.”
The idea is that the act of worship addressed to “you” is carried out “before you”, “you” being the object of that “worship”. For an article on the “worship” word, see here: http://kingdomready.org/blog/2008/10/01/defining-the-term-%E2%80%9Cworship%E2%80%9D/
There are many instances where this verb “worship” (Gr. proskyneo”) occurs; it has a wide semantic range, it is no way restricted to “worship”. A few examples: Gen 19:1; 23:7, 12; 27:29; 33:3, etc etc…
Allow me to help you with that. Isaiah saw the glory of God. God gave His glory to Jesus, and John knows it very well - he heard Jesus saying so. Revelation says so as well, look it up please. As a matter of fact, in various places in the Bible, Jesus is said to have received about everything from God - including glory. God gives from his abundance, those who lack receive what He gives.
For “Before Abraham was, I AM”, see here: http://kingdomready.org/blog/2009/05/14/john-858-before-abraham-was/
For how Jesus is god, you can also read here: http://the-preexistent-son-of-god.blogspot.com/2009/01/excursus-divine-messiah-and-ancient.html
See my comment here please: http://kingdomready.org/blog/2008/11/19/revelation-2213-a-difficult-text/
On Jesus forgiving sins: http://kingdomready.org/blog/2008/09/10/jesus-forgave-sins/
On the missing first century controversy of Jesus being God: http://kingdomready.org/blog/2009/07/29/wheres-the-historical-controversy/
“And then it says that all things were made for Him and by Him.”
10 For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
this doesnt even come close to saying Jesus made all things. this is speaking of God who again says God made Jesus.
Jesus has no sons, he has only fathers, mothers,brothers and sisters but never any sons.
again you twist to suit.
robert,
See Colossians 1
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.
19 For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell, 20 and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross.
and Hebrews 1
1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; 3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
robert,
You said: “Jesus is not the Word, He is the first to recieve the Word in the flesh”
The Word is God. The Word became flesh and dwelt among us. Who was God in the flesh that dwelt among us? It was Jesus Christ. I don’t know if you can get any plainer than that.
Now you cant distinguish between Christ and the man Jesus. Christ is the power of God(the Word, Holy Spirit) Giving to Jesus. Yes the power of God created everything even the Man Jesus. if we be in Christ as Jesus is then we too can.
The main thing in the OT about the new covenant was we received the word in our fleshy heart, jesus was the first.
there is 100 of verses which makes this clear and makes its clear that Jesus is not God. why take something you are not willing to try to understand by using the clear verses through out the bible that cant even be twisted by the best of your kind.
I can understands this by using just a few of the clear verses but you just ignore them lock,stock and barrell.
Jesus flat out says THAT GOD IS HIS FATHER, OUR FATHER,HIS GOD, OUR GOD.
What 3 year old could not understand that.
the Word Didnt Become Flesh Till Jesus was nearly 30 (as was supposed). before that he was just a man who had faith in the one God of the Scriptures he read or Heard of and who must of watch many die, many sick but there is not a record of him healing before his receiving of the Word in the flesh.30 years he did nothing, if he was God or even If He had the power of God this man would of used it then. Jesus Didnt receive this power till his baptism when then he used the power.
You follow a doctrine of paganism (the trinity) which existed 1000’s of years before Jesus. the father, virgin mother and the son who also was his own father. paganism won the battle during the time of the truth and the doctrine of the trinity in christiananity. Satan loves you for your belief in the trinity, how proud you must make him. tell him that my King will be coming to lock him up
Marie P.,
how about Mt 2, where the Magi came wanting to worship the newborn KING? they nowhere asked about the newborn God whom they wanted “to worship”, did they? They asked about the KING because they wanted TO WORSHIP him.
You point out the root of your problem => You use the term “worship” only with one specific meaning (”to worship as God”), when in truth the term is used in other contexts as well.
Cheers
Wolfgang
Wolfgang,
good point, we could also point out that king David was commonly called “my lord” and worshiped repeatedly (i.e. 1 Sam 25.23; 1 Kings 1.31; etc.). The same Hebrew word shacha is used of David that is used of God. If anyone is curious about the worship issue in particular (and wants to read a dry theology paper on the subject) click here.
http://kingdomready.org/blog/2008/10/01/defining-the-term-%e2%80%9cworship%e2%80%9d/
Wolfgang, Sean, Xavier, robert,
“Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever”- Hebrews 13:8
I pray that God will grant you to grace to see that this is true. I think my time here is done. You are not seeing what is right before your eyes.
HAHAHAHAHAHA
u a comedianne or comedian?
somehow i doubt you’ll be missed MarieP
Marie,
Nowhere does the Bible say “God in the flesh” as you state in post #91. You are making that up because your theology requires it. The scripture is clear that God is Spirit, not flesh, yet you are telling us to believe the opposite?
You will notice that most folks on this forum are using clear Biblical language, while trinitarians must introduce extra-Biblical language to support their points; language that is not found in the Bible.
I feel excluded
You may not have noticed my response (#88) because it showed up after newer comments (was flagged as spam b/c of the many links it contains, so it’s validation was postponed).
About what’s right before our eyes, may I suggest you have the later Nicean creed right before your mental eyes and then you interpret the Bible in the light of that creed? That is why we don’t see things the way you do.
Marie P.,
you mentinoed
Now, that statement contradicts the trinitarian doctrine, doesn’t it? It seems to me that the trinitarian doctrine claims that Jesus Christ actually did change somehow, from being “God” to then being “man” to then being “God” or whatever ?
I do have a simple question concerning Heb 13:8: What does the statement “Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever” mean? Obviously, Jesus Christ was different when we compare his life prior to his death and his life after the resurrection … yes? That would plainly prove that he did change … how therefore can he be “the same” yesterday, today and forever?
Cheers,
Wolfgang
By Jesus Christ all things were made as God created through him in the beginning. That’s only one reason he is called the Word of God. There are many more reasons why Jesus is called that.
Some of you followed men’s teachings rather than what the Bible teaches. Clearly, all things were made by God through Christ. God did his creative work by him, for him and through him. Jesus has been his Son from eternity, dwelling in God from everlasting. This is clearly in the Bible, a thing some of you don’t want to see, but you will be found worshiping God and Christ at the feet of others who have believed the truth that you have refused to see.
Whats sad is those who claim the trinity is true and those who think Jesus pre existed miss more than half the message of the testamony of Jesus. the most overlooked message was that a man could resist his own freewill for the promise of something more glorious than what can be achieved in the flesh. this was spoken and also lived by Jesus. we should follow Jesus’ example and walk with God the way he did.
Ray,
we must remember that God creating through Christ is meant by things pertaining to the human race, earth, and the Kingdom to come. Otherwise why would it say in the book of Hebrew 2:7 that “Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:”?
To add: Why did God create through Christ? The answer is simple, because man is a fallen creature and God knew that a Messiah would be necessary to redeem the wages of sin.
Psalm 2:12
Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their
trust in him.
The believing Hebrews knew God had a Son which would one day
come into this world. If they did not, how is it that David’s writing of
this Psalm found it’s way into the scriptures which they accepted?
moment of silence for 9/11………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………..RIP
There are many sons, even David was called a son.
God reveals his plan as he sees fit, He already knows everything from beginning to end. he knew my fate from the beginning of creation but still allows me free will. Jesus was known by God before he even existed and allowed him freewill to be for the redemption of man.God spoke of him to the prophets before he even existed.
Jesus had the ability to fail but God saw that he wouldnt.
Psalm 2:12 could be speaking of David or Jesus or both, why try to make it your meaning when it is not clear
Robert,
Now that you are considering that Psalm 2:12 could be speaking of Jesus (who is the word of God), are you willing to consider what the meaning of the word “now” is in these verses together?
Psalm 2:10-12
Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.
Serve the Lord with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.
In this section of the Psalms, David tells the people to put their trust in the Son of God, saying so in the present sense.
What is Servetus the Evangelical? Is he a true evangelist or does he have a crooked message?
Ray
if this is speaking of Jesus, it is from the vision of prophecy. more than likely this is speaking of David.
there is nothing throught the scriptures that says Jesus is the Word of God, only that he recieved the Word of God and it remained with him unlike others where it would come and go. this is what the New covenant is partially about and is what John 1 is describing
Jesus was the first to receive the Word in the flesh instead of having the Word of God put into their mouth to speak.
the Word becoming flesh was explaining the New and better way that God’s people would receive the knowlege to follow the ways of God. this was the Gift of the Holy Spirit.
Jesus did not pre exist his Birth, and Jesus the Christ did not pre exist the gift of the Holy spirit. But he was destined to be the Christ from the beginning of Creation.
David encouraged others through the Psalms to worship the Son of God. He that has the Son has the Father also and he who has
the Father also has the Son. This mystery was hidden but was later revealed to the holy apostles such as John and Paul.
As i said Ray it was thru the vision of prophecy of many prophets including himself that David knew of the Coming of Jesus.
Gods plan included his comings.
who Jesus is now he earned the same way we will.
Not only did the prophets know of his coming, they also were aware of his existance before he was born on this earth. They told us of his reigning with God, the holy one of Israel, as he is.
They proclaimed glory to the righteous one, and praised the redeemer of Israel. They did so in mysteries that were many times hidden from the eyes of men.
If Jesus pre existed than his immortal being could not die making God, Jesus and the disciples liars and making his death mean absolutely nothing because that would mean it didnt happen. then we would have no need for this discussion.
Jesus was born a mortal. An immortal can not become a mortal because that would mean he was never immortal.
this is what you can not understand or what you can not see or hear.
Dont try to take away what Jesus did and who he became by raising him to glory before these things happened. thats what trinitarians do.
being destined for greatness does not mean the greatness pre existed
Though Jesus existed with God from eternity being at such time a being without beginning or end, he came into this world being a mortal. At such time he was fully able to die, a thing which he did to the glory of God, being the sacrificial lamb the scriptures prophesied of.
Robert, you may put me down as one that does not follow you.
Ray
why should you think i put you down when i am trying to lift you up to the truth away from fables. if your belief was true than it would be Clearly supported by scriptures, its not ,thats why i wont believe you.
besides you shouldnt follow a man, you should follow clear truths
Robert,
I don’t need you to take me off the path of life. It seems as if you think you are trying to help. I do not need your help. Thank you.
Ray
My discussion with you really wasnt for your benefit because you are not willing to accept the truth because you are not willing to change.
It was for person or persons that might come to this site seeking the truth.
while i think your a great guy, i hate the doctrines you follow and if i seem harsh it is because i hate the doctrines of men, not the man itself
One of the worst things that can happen to a Christian is that he become a stumbling block and an offence, contrary to the truth.
Matthew 13:41-42
The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Till that day come there is time for repentance and perfection.
The Lord is refining his Church and will continue to do so.
Ray
All i was doing was showing that the gift of the Holy Spirit was a promise of the New Covenant.The receiving of the Holy Spirit is how God will write His Laws in the Hearts and Minds of His Children. Jesus was the First to receive the Holy Spirit this Way.
This is what John1 is speaking of. By Moses we received the law written in ink and on stone,but by Jesus we receive it Written in our Hearts and Minds. A more perfect way. This is what the Word becoming Flesh is all about. the Holy Spirit is the Word and was with God from the Beginning because it is a part of the single Being of God.
this is the most overlooked clear truth of the scriptutes and very nessesary for receiving the Holy Spirit.
this is why there is very few true christians today like there was the first 2 centuries.
Hebrews 8
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put [3] my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: 11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
Wolves in sheep’s clothing, a thing to be loathing
While men in their tents refuse to repent
In the light of dawn what can be drawn
From the figures we see and the types that there be
Lest in the thing be, the light that we need
And the thing that be true, the light that we knew?
Ray
i am not saying you are a wolf in sheeps clothing. the fact is you are so transparent nobody listens or follows you even when you claim christiananity is as easy as waking up in the morning.
i see why people dont follow me , its because they are not willing to choose the truth over their own pleasures and i remind them of it. i didnt expect to be accepted but if only one comes to the truth here than it was worth the persecution by those who claim superiority over me because they feel their education makes them superior.i would rather be a retard with the truth than be a genius without it.
some here just assert their superiority thru ignoring people like they dont exist.
you are just one of the deceived, others should know better
Here’s some good truth to accept:
Jesus being the brightness of the glory of God made the galaxies
as he is and was the express image of God’s person. He upholds all things by the word of God’s power. He was made so much better than the angels, for which of the angels did God say that
he created all things by, through, and for? God did it all through Jesus by his own power working through him who came into this world taking on himself the form of a man, suffering for us and our
salvation, redeeming us from our sins, and ascending up where he was before.
Though he was as God is, he became one of us, the imortal taking on imortality that he might die for our sins and be raised back to life by the power of God. He’s back on the throne.
The one thing i admire about you Ray is you do not fear being different, thats a great quality and if more professed christians had that maybe more would come to the truth that the trinity is false.
as i said before, believe what you will, as for me i will claim clear truth over imagination.
seems that some of the smartest men like Isaac Newton and Michael Servetus share the same truths
” That is, Newton did not believe in the Trinity. Westfall adds, his views “remained unaltered until his death.”
The law of gravity became Newton’s best-known discovery, but Newton saw a monotheistic God as the masterful creator whose existence could not be denied in the face of the grandeur of all creation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaac_Newton%27s_religious_views
some great reading is
http://www.newtonproject.sussex.ac.uk/view/texts/normalized/THEM00211
Robert,
This is my first time here, and this thread the only one I have read. But I have read it all - long as it is - and wonder about the statement below which you made to Ray:
“…it was worth the persecution by those who claim superiority over me because they feel their education makes them superior.”
First, I may have missed it, but nowhere here did I see anything befitting the characterization of “persecution” which you apparently feel yourself to have been the subject of.
Nor did I see anyone claiming superiority over you due to intellect, education or upon any other basis. In fact, it seems to be you who are impressed with the intelligence of others when you think you can make it work for you. You don’t hesitate to pull out the “superior minds” to bolster your position and demonstrate it as superior - as you do below.
“seems that some of the smartest men like Isaac Newton and Michael Servetus share the same truths”
Is this supposed to make those who disagree feel their own inferior position? Or is this a game of “my guy’s smarter than your guy”?
The truth is in many of your posts in this thread you come across as arrogant, condescending and childish. Argue the merits of the position without resorting to the childish belittling rhetoric; refrain from the arrogant posturing and lose the martyr complex.
At this rate, by your own standards, you’ll never attain your goal.
Rick
Rick
thank you for your response but there is more to understand than whats written within this thread. these things have been resolved.
I wrote
“seems that some of the smartest men like Isaac Newton and Michael Servetus share the same truths”
“Is this supposed to make those who disagree feel their own inferior position? Or is this a game of “my guy’s smarter than your guy”?”
No this just shows that i am pleased that the truth has prevailed over tradition with these 2 men
Let me just throw out a name for you:
Richard Foster
I know who it is…
Anyone guess from the latest clue yet? Contact me and see if we match.
http://servetustheevangelical.com/the_contest_6.html
I couldn’t begin to guess, but I like one of the guesses at the bottom of his web page:
A Hypostatic Union consisting of Prof. James White (Alpha and Omega Ministries) and Sean Finnegan (Truth Matters) in one body.
hehehe…well none of those guesses are even close…
Nonetheless, he is a well known “name” in more than one field [hint hint]…
Will we be impressed? Underwhelmed?
hmmm…lukewarm or pleasantly surprised…depending on your tastes [hint hint]
He is a golfer (from the last clue)? Is his PhD in theology or some other field (I am guessing this from your clue)? Is he a natural-born citizen?
Albeit obscure, the clues make up a “multi-talented” person…
He is a “professional” golfer [HINT].
Tiger Woods!
lol or an astronaut!!! not sure but its fun I probably wont know who he is anyway! God Bless
Your in the ballpark with your first guess Stace [can I call you Stace?]
lol yes u may, my friends and family call me that!!!!! well I guess we will find out tomorrow!!!!!! and why he changed the date????? preatty cool this is!!!
How do u get the smiley I love it!!!!
collon [:] and a parantheses [)]
lol I know that one u have a real one on here lol lol !!!!!!! And I can’t copy and paste it????
Xavier - you should publicly state your guess so we know if you are right or not!
Tim,
I am honoring “Servetus the Evangelical” wishes for secrecy. Not long to go anyways, just a few hours.
But, I am sure if you put some thought to it and “google” the clues you’ll come up with the answer.
www.kermitzarley.com/?
Is your name Timothy Wolfgang? Were you in New Zealand around about 1959?
Are you still on this website?
No.
Yes.