What Happens When We Die? (Part 3)

January 10th, 2010 by Brian Keating

Are dead people conscious of anything?

As noted in the introduction, the mainstream doctrine states that people remain conscious after they die – by virtue of the fact that people have “immortal souls”. However, my belief is that souls are mortal – and as a result, when we die, we are not conscious any longer. So, let’s take a look in scripture, to determine if people are still conscious after they die or not:


Ecclesiastes 9:5

5For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

Ecclesiastes 9:10

10Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

Psalms 6:5

5For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

Psalms 115:17

17The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

Psalms 146:2-4

2While I live will I praise the LORD: I will sing praises unto my God while I have any being.

3Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.

4His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

Isaiah 38:18-19

18For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth. 19The living, the living, he shall praise thee, as I do this day: the father to the children shall make known thy truth.


All of the verses listed above indicate that dead people are not conscious at all. In other words, when people die, they become completely unconscious – i.e., dead people are not aware of anything.


Death is described as “sleep”

Another item to note is that Scripture frequently compares death to “sleep”. This gives us another indication that people are not conscious when they are dead. The following verses use that comparison:


Psalms 13:3

3Consider and hear me, O LORD my God: lighten mine eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death;

John 11:11-14 (ESV)

11After saying these things, he said to them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep, but I go to awaken him.” 12The disciples said to him, “Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will recover.” 13Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that he meant taking rest in sleep. 14Then Jesus told them plainly, “Lazarus has died, 15and for your sake I am glad that I was not there, so that you may believe. But let us go to him.”

Acts 7:59-60 (ESV)

59And as they were stoning Stephen, he called out, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” 60And falling to his knees he cried out with a loud voice, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them.” And when he had said this, he fell asleep.


Do people go to heaven after they die?

Most denominations say that if a person believes in God, then that person will go to heaven when he dies. Basically, the mainstream doctrine states that when a believer dies, his immortal soul will leave his body and go to heaven – and as a result, that person will live in heaven, with God, forever. However, is that doctrine listed anywhere in Scripture?

Moses certainly believed in God – after all, God gave Moses the Ten Commandments, He empowered Moses to part the Red Sea, etc. So, did Moses go to heaven, to be with God, when he died?

After Moses died, his assistant Joshua took over leadership of the Israelites. Let’s see what God tells Joshua about Moses, when Joshua first takes over:


Joshua 1:1-2 (ESV)

1After the death of Moses the servant of the LORD, the LORD said to Joshua the son of Nun, Moses’ assistant, 2“Moses my servant is dead. Now therefore arise, go over this Jordan, you and all this people, into the land that I am giving to them, to the people of Israel.


Notice what God told Joshua: “Moses my servant is dead”. This indicates that Moses is not still alive, in heaven! (If Moses were alive in heaven, then God would have said something like, “Moses my servant is up here with me, in heaven”.) So, this tells me that Moses is dead and buried – not alive in heaven.


King David certainly believed in God – in fact, David is called “a man after God’s own heart” in 1 Samuel 13. So, if the doctrine of “going to heaven after you die” is true, then King David must certainly have gone to heaven after he died. But did David actually go to heaven? Let’s find out:


Acts 2:29,34-35 (NIV)

29“Brothers, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day.

34For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said,
” ‘The Lord said to my Lord:
“Sit at my right hand
35until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet.” ‘


The above passage indicates that David did not go to heaven after he died! Instead, he is still dead and buried, in his tomb.

In fact, Jesus told us that no one has ever ascended into heaven, except Jesus himself:


John 3:13 (ESV)

13 No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.


Scripture is pretty clear that people do not go to heaven after they die – instead, dead people remain “sleeping in the grave”, completely unconscious. In other words, when a person dies, he does not “go” anywhere – instead, he is simply a dead body, in the grave. Scripture also states that humans and animals will both meet the same end – humans and animals both “return to dust”. For example, see these verses:


Genesis 3:19 (ESV)

19By the sweat of your face
you shall eat bread,
till you return to the ground,
for out of it you were taken;
for you are dust,
   and to dust you shall return.”

Ecclesiastes 3:19-20 (ESV)

19 For what happens to the children of man and what happens to the beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts, for all is vanity. 20All go to one place. All are from the dust, and to dust all return.

Psalms 104:29 (ESV)

29When you hide your face, they are dismayed;
when you take away their breath, they die
   and return to their dust.


Next: After we die, will we ever come back to life?

5 Responses to “What Happens When We Die? (Part 3)”

  1. on 11 Jan 2010 at 11:47 pm1 Randy

    I would like to see more commentary on that verse from John 3:13. Did Jesus descend from heaven? If so in what way? Or was he actually meaning his birth via the spirit was how he descended? Is this another one of those troubling verses we as One God thinkers have to wrestle with?

  2. on 12 Jan 2010 at 3:44 am2 Brian Keating

    Hi Randy,

    That is a good question. Trinitarians (and Arians) sometimes use that verse, to try to prove that Jesus personally pre-existed before his birth.

    From my understanding, the phrases “descend from heaven” and “come down from heaven” are generally figures of speech - they refer to things that are sent from God, to people on the earth. Here are some examples of this concept:

    2 Kings 1:10:
    10But Elijah answered the captain of fifty, “If I am a man of God, let fire come down from heaven and consume you and your fifty.” Then fire came down from heaven and consumed him and his fifty.

    Did the fire pre-exist in heaven, before Elijah summoned it? I don’t see any indication of that.

    James 1:17:
    17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights with whom there is no variation or shadow due to change.

    Does every good gift literally pre-exist in heaven, before being manifested on the earth? That doesn’t seem very likely.

    In John chapter 6, Jesus makes another reference to himself “coming down from heaven”. In this case, it is obvious that he is using figurative language, since he refers to himself as “the bread of life”, and “living bread”:

    John 6:48-51:
    48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. 50 This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. 51I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.”

    Since the phrase “I am the living bread” is definitely figurative, I would say that the phrase “came down from heaven” is also figurative - especially since both phrases are part of the exact same sentence! Does this make sense?

    Brian

  3. on 12 Jan 2010 at 6:29 am3 Jaco

    Randy, there is something else to consider:

    Jesus said that no one ascendED into heaven, but the one who descended therefrom. To use this as a proof that no one ever literally ascended into heaven creates an anachronism, since, by that time Jesus had not ascended into heaven. Hence the excellent correction on their understanding of Scripture on Anthony Buzzard’s website:

    In what sense can Jesus have claimed already to have ascended to heaven? The statement has been taken by some to mean that sometime during his historical ministry Jesus had been literally transported into the presence of his Father. But the Gospels nowhere record such an event. Others have argued for a predictive sense of the past tense, i.e., that the Son of Man was destined to ascend, a prophecy of his ascension after the resurrection.
    There is an easier explanation of Jesus’ ascent into heaven, based on biblical precedent and Jewish ways of speaking. “No one has ascended to heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man, who is in heaven” is a figurative description of Jesus’ unique perception of God’s saving plan. Jesus possesses a unique understanding of the secrets of the universe which he now reveals to all who will listen. The phrase “who is in heaven,” which appears in some Greek as well as Latin and Syriac manuscripts, indicates that Jesus, while living on earth, was at the same time also “in heaven” in constant communion with his Father on whom he depended for everything. As the bridge between heaven and earth he claimed to have unique access to divine information. A similar status applies later to all believers whom Paul describes as “seated in heavenly places” (Eph. 2:6).
    Jesus’ “ascent to heaven” during his ministry points then to his intimate fellowship with his Father. As Son he resides “in the bosom of the Father” (John 1:18). The context of John 3:13 shows Jesus in conversation with Nicodemus about the secrets of immortality. Jesus is “talking about what we know” (John 3:11). In contrast to Nicodemus’ unfamiliarity with the keys to entering the Kingdom and the necessity of being born again, Jesus says, “Truly I tell you, we are testifying to what we have seen, but you people do not accept our testimony” (John 3:11). Jesus doubts Nicodemus’ capacity to receive “heavenly things.” It is these heavenly secrets which Jesus is able to reveal because he “has ascended to heaven” and “is in heaven.” In Proverbs 30:3, 4 the words of Agur contain a similar reference to ascension to heaven. The object of such an “ascent” is to gain understanding and divine revelation. “Surely I am more stupid than any man. I do not have the understanding of a man. Neither have I learned wisdom. Nor do I have the knowledge of the Holy One. Who has ascended to heaven and come down?” Similarly, Baruch 3:29 asks: “Who has gone up to heaven and obtained her [Wisdom] and brought her down from the clouds?” (cp. Deut. 30:12).[6]

    If, however, it was merely John’s redaction, rendering Jesus’ words retrospectively back into history, or even proleptically, his words could be taken up literally.

    Chew on that :-)

    Jaco

  4. on 17 Jan 2010 at 8:37 pm4 Kingdom Ready Blog » Blog Archive » What Happens When We Die? (Part 4)

    […] From the information in the last post, we can see that when people die, they are no longer alive at all – that is, death is the complete absence of life. In addition, death is described as “sleep” – which implies that death may be a “temporary” state. Finally, we know that when people die, they do not go to heaven (or anywhere else). Instead, dead people are simply “sleeping in the grave”, completely unconscious. […]

  5. on 17 Jan 2010 at 8:53 pm5 Xavier

    Key text in this discussion is found in 1Thess 4-5:

    Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death [DEAD], so that you do not grieve like the rest, who have no hope.

    We believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him [the DEAD and not LIVING SOULS]. According to the Lord’s word [cp. Mat 24.31f.], we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep [DEAD].

    For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead [ASLEEP] in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so [THIS IS THE ONLY MANNER] we will be with the Lord forever [NOT PREVIOUSLY]. Therefore encourage one another with these words [AND NO OTHER]…

    For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath [HE LOVES US] but to receive salvation [FUTURE TENSE] through our Lord Jesus Christ. He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep [DEAD OR ALIVE], we may live together with him [DEAD with a future hope, ALIVE for the LORD].

    Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing.

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