Another Trinity/Monotheism “Debate”
February 2nd, 2010 by Brian
FYI . . . over at Parchment and Pen, Rob Bowman just announced that he will be having a “debate” with Christadelphian Dave Burke concerning the doctrine of the trinity. The date is a ways off (April). Notice that Kingdom Ready is represented in the resource section of the post. They are limiting themselves to 5,000 words per post–that’s probably less than some of the recent posts on this site. I’m not familiar with Dave Burke. Any one know about him?
Hi Brian,
I guess I’m qualified to answer your question.
I am the co-founder and administrator of an online Christadelphian forum (www.thechristadelphians.org/forums). I’m 37 years old (in a couple of weeks) and I’ve been a Christadelphian all my life.
My role in our community is equivalent to what mainstream Christians call a “pastor.” I’ve studied and debated the Trinity (both formally and informally) for about 17 years now. I’ve also studied early Christian history at university. I possess no professional theological qualifications, but consider myself well read for a layman.
I have debated the Trinity online with Robert Turkel and enjoyed some informal exchanges with Edgar Foster on JW Christology and the history of Arianism. For a couple of years I was also a regular at Matt Slick’s forums (www.carm.org) where I debated his evangelical staff and members alike. I am fairly well known in the British and Australian Christadelphian communities. I believe Sean Finnegan knows my twin brother, Jonathan.
Rob Bowman had originally proposed a word limit of 10,000 each, but I considered that far too lengthy for the average reader. It’s difficult to maintain the focus and force of an argument in a debate context when you have that much material sloshing around on a blog. 5,000 words is long enough to be detailed but short enough to be accessible; this probably works out at 4,000 for argument and 1,000 for rebuttal.
At the end of the sixth week, the word limit will be lifted and we’ll respond to questions and arguments from the audience, so we’ll have a chance to deal with anything which hasn’t been covered by that stage.
I really like what you guys are doing at Kingdom Ready. It’s an excellent site with good quality material. May God bless your work.
In Christ,
Dave
Dave,
Glad to have you here. I have the utmost respect and admiration for your brother. I didn’t know he had a twin!
grace & peace
Sean,
FYI, Anthony Buzzard will be debating Michael Brown and James White this month:
Check out White’s flippant comments on his blog, his kept tabs on Anthony for some time now:
http://www.aomin.org/aoblog/index.php?itemid=3739
http://www.aomin.org/aoblog/index.php?itemid=3744
Thanks Sean, it’s great to have your support.
:)
Dave,
Thanks for your reply. Look forward to the debate.
Brian
Cheers Brian. Feel free to visit our forums if you ever feel like discussing some fresh Unitarian material!
Well, the Buzzard v. Brown debate is over, who won?
http://lineoffireradio.askdrbrown.org/2010/02/08/february-8-2010/
I am very thankful to Anthony for discussing with people like Brown and White. Anthony is extremely knowledgable in these areas and I believe very capable of articulating the unitarian position with clarity and grace.
I just listened to the exchange he had with Dr. Brown and I must say that Dr. Brown’s method of interaction with others is unsettling to me. For example, he acted as though he could not see the point about the superiority of Christ in a text like John 1:15, 30. Astonishing to say the least.
Anthony, in my opinion, did a much better job here at presenting a position. He was very focused and to the point. Dr. Brown often likes to jump from text to text without really exegeting any text. He did this a few shows ago with James White as well.
Anyhow, I look so forward to the discussion between White and Buzzard!
Just to bring you up to date on the White debate, it will hopefully be later this month [tentative Feb. 28 date] and aired the following week [1st week of March].
Matthew,
I have observed this behavior almost without exception among evangelical or conservative scholars. I guess when you invest many years and money in getting an advanced degree (sometimes many degrees), I can see how it is difficult to admit that you might be wrong, or that there are other legitimate ways to look at a passage.
I am tending to think that the more “liberal” scholars are really closer to the truth than the evangelical types. It is these so-called liberal types that will admit that the trinity is no where found in the Bible and “evolved” over hundreds of years. I have more respect for a liberal that believes in the trinity and that will admit this, than someone like Dr. Brown who is supremely confident in his interpretation, yet is considered conservative or evangelical in his outlook.
I have recently (within the last couple of years) started to really study the scriptures at a deeper level. It can be unsettling at first to see how ambiguous the original text is in a lot of cases. I read a commentary on the book of Job recently and the author admitted that there is a lot in there that people have no idea how to translate or what it means, so they kind of make stuff up.
Many “conservative” interpretations of John 1 are along the same lines. We should take the prologue as axiomatic and not try to fit it into a grid or theological system. But I digress …
Oh, brother, what a debate!
I think that Mr Buzzard by far won this debate! His demeanor, his elegance, his solid presentation of Scripture without using vague language just made a rock-solid case!
Blessed be our God for that!
Jaco
Someone should make a separate thread for the Sir Anthony debate with Dr. Brown so that we can discuss the details of the debate.
Joseph,
Sean has known of the debate for some time now, perhaps he [and the other posters] are busy.
Don’t see why you cannot post your comments here though, would love to know what you thought.
Thanks Xavier for the heads up,
I thought Brown’s “pleading the case”argument was basically a cope-out because of his lack of MSS evidence to prove the contrary. Buzzard, I thought did a great job at bringing up the MSS evidence to support his case, when I don’t believe at one time did Brown cite a specific MSS to support his position. Rather, Brown relied on the Church’s historical majority for his proof of the Trinity, or as he called it, “complex unity.”
On a personal note, I get a feeling that Brown uses his being a Jew as though this gives him more understanding of the Tanakh than someone who is not Jewish. I live in Israel, also have Jewish blood, and speak Hebrew, would disagree with Brown’s apparent demeanor. I also consider myself to be Messianic. I never think that because I can speak Hebrew, and that because I have Jewish blood this somehow makes me more of an expert on Biblical texts.
Overall, I think Buzzard handled himself very well being in a radio format where Dr. Brown controls the format, and has the louder mic.
Thoughts?
Anthony won that debate, hands down. The trinitarians are confusing and make no sense. I am a former trinitarian.
Lori
How did you come to the sound doctrine?
BTW: Anthony will be debating James White today over at premier.org.uk/unbelievable. Taping will be done today and hopefully will be made available on March 6. Look out for it.
Well, the James White v. Anthony Buzzard debate is “in the can” [as they say]. Check out White’s [albeit] brief comments on his blog and follow for it for future posting of the program.
Yeah, “different encounter” because as amazing as it might sound for most of us who hold to a Socinian Christology, people like White or Dr. Michael Brown seem never to have met one.
The feedback I got from “the Buzzard camp” was that White was beffudled by some of Anthony’s responses regarding the readings of Ps 110.1; Heb 1.10.
Can’t wait to listen to this one.
PS: As regards Michael Brown, he has asked Anthony back for a second go around. Can’t wait for this one either:
http://lineoffireradio.askdrbrown.org/2010/02/08/february-8-2010/comment-page-9/#comment-15572
Xavier,
I have not visited the Line of Fire website lately. It doesn’t surprise me. Brown is a wolf in sheep’s clothing. Civility doesn’t feel good for the savage. Taking off the gloves is the kind of street fighter style we expect from spiritual terrorists. I have extremely little regard for this charlatan.
Jaco
Jaco
Ok, brother,
I’ll accept your counsel.
Where can I find the recent White vs. Buzzard debate?
Anthony’s discussion with James White on the British radio show “Unbelievable” is scheduled to air March 6. They post the programs on their website after they air. See http://www.premier.org.uk/unbelievable.
Joseph
For any future news, updates etc., check out his website:
http://focusonthekingdom.org/index.html
The James White v. Anthony Buzzard debate finally online:
http://www.premierradio.org.uk/listen/ondemand.aspx?mediaid={8D308942-5CE3-4BB8-9039-B8653F819D33}
Who won?