Who Is Messiah? (Part 4)
February 22nd, 2010 by Mark C.
Where is the Proof?
Trinitarians know that the word Trinity does not appear in the Bible. When this is pointed out, they will sometimes respond that this doesn’t prove anything because, “The word ‘Bible’ isn’t in the Bible either!” But in fact the word Bible is from the Greek word biblos meaning ‘book’ and does in fact appear in the Bible, referring to the written Scriptures. Yet, even if that word weren’t used, the idea of written Scriptures is certainly present, and described by other good words, such as “scripture,” “writing,” and the oft-repeated phrase, “It is written.”
Compare this to the Trinity. While the word “Trinity” (as well as other Trinitarian language such as “three persons in one God,” “triune,” “one substance,” “eternally begotten,” etc.) is absent from Scripture, it is claimed that such language was coined after the Canon of Scripture was completed to describe concepts that are in the Bible. This should send up a red flag for any Bible student. It suggests that God didn’t do a good enough job communicating His nature in the Scriptures inspired by Him. If God were indeed “one essence existing in three persons” surely in His infinite wisdom He could have come up with words to describe it in the Scriptures He inspired. But there is nothing that suggests such a concept in the Bible. Why would the full communication of the nature of God be left up to people writing two hundred or more years after the New Testament was completed?
Nevertheless, Trinitarians claim that the concept, if not the language, of the Trinity is in the Bible. But when they are asked to show where it appears, they don’t point to any Scripture that directly says God is three persons. They can’t, because there is no such passage of Scripture. What they point to for proof is the verses that clearly state that the Father is God, then to verses that seem to say Jesus is God and the Holy Spirit is God. The notion is inferred logically from the fact that these three persons are called God. There is only one God, yet three persons are called God, so logically they must be three persons in one God.
The problem with this logic is that, first of all, it directly contradicts the clear Scriptures which state that the Father is the one and only true God (John 17:1-3; I Corinthians 8:6; Ephesians 4:6). Secondly, there are better ways to understand the few verses which call Jesus and the Holy Spirit “God.” We saw in what sense Jesus is called God (in only two verses for sure) above. I deal with how the Bible presents the Holy Spirit as God’s operational presence and power, in a separate article. So just the fact that they are all thought to be called God does not in itself prove the Trinity.
Furthermore, there is no Scripture anywhere that presents God as more than one person. Quite the contrary, the Bible declares God to be “one” and presents Him as a single personal being, while Jesus Christ is declared to be the “only-begotten Son of God” and not “God the Son.” In all of the thousands of references to God in the Bible, not one can be demonstrated to mean a plurality. He is always one.
But then the error is compounded by reading it back into the Scriptures. The Trinity was not formulated as a doctrine until much later, so any reference to it in the Bible would be an anachronism. The proof texts that are thought to substantiate the Trinity must be looked at more closely, and without a preconceived Trinitarian mindset.
Only a few verses refer to the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost or Holy Spirit together (Matthew 28:19; I Corinthians 12:3-6; II Corinthians 13:14; I Peter 1:2). But they all just list the three. From other Scriptures we know that the Father is God, the Creator. Jesus Christ is the Son of God, not God the Son, and only ever called God in a secondary, representational sense. And the Holy Spirit refers to God’s power and presence in action, especially as concentrated in the risen Christ. Nowhere does it say that they are “three persons in one God,” co-equal, co-eternal, or of the same substance.
The only verse in the Bible that says anything resembling “three persons in one God” is I John 5:7-8. This passage has been one of the most hotly contested passages in the Bible, due to its lack of textual evidence. The majority of scholars consider it to be an interpolation.
The KJV reads, “For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.” But the words in bold, referred to as the Johannine Comma by theologians, are not found in the vast majority of Greek manuscripts. For this reason most modern versions omit it. For example, the NASB words it as, “For there are three that testify: the Spirit and the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.”
There are some who maintain the passage’s validity, however. (See a discussion of this in a Closer Look article.) But even if it were in the original, the fact is that these verses, as written, do not prove the Trinity any more than John 10:30. The Father, His Word, and His Spirit are all one in purpose and function just as Jesus said he and the Father were. The verse does not say they are “one substance” nor are they called “three persons in one God.”
One verse that is supposed to imply plurality in God is Genesis 1:26, “And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness.” The fact that He says “Let us…” is supposed by some to mean He was speaking to the Son. But there are two other possibilities. It may be an example of the “plural of majesty” as when a king uses the royal “we.” Or, God may have been addressing His angels, as Job 38:6-7 describes the angels rejoicing at the time of God’s creation. Either way, the next verse (verse 27) strongly suggests that He worked alone when it says, “So God created man in his own image.” It would be illogical to claim that the use of “us” in this and only three other verses (Genesis 3:22; 11:7; Isaiah 6:8) means that God is plural, when references to God are used with singular verbs and pronouns some twelve thousand times throughout the Bible. God stressed that He created the universe by Himself in Isaiah 44:24.
The word elohim is said by some to be a plural word, because it has a plural ending (-im) in Hebrew. If that were the case, though, it should be translated “gods” in every case. Merely having a plural ending does not necessarily mean it is plural in meaning. There are other words in Hebrew that have plural endings but are actually singular in meaning, such as chayyim (life), panim (face), and mayim (water). Elohim is sometimes used to refer to plural people (Psalm 82:6) or plural gods (Judges 11:24; I Samuel 5:7) but is also used of singular people who are obviously not plural (for example, Moses in Exodus 7:1 and the king in Psalm 45:6). The context must determine whether plurality is actually intended.
When used of God, Elohim is used with singular verbs and pronouns in the approximately 2300 places where it occurs. In addition, other names for God, such as YHVH (some 7000 occurrences) and Adonai, (some 449 occurrences), as well as the Greek New Testament name, (about 1317 occurrences), all take singular pronouns and verbs (except for the four verses mentioned above). Not one reference to God in the Bible can be shown to represent Him as a multipersonal being, as “uni-plural” or as “triune.” God is emphatically declared to be one person.
Some have tried to suggest that the Hebrew word for “one,” echad, carries with it a plural meaning, and can refer to a “compound unity.” They refer to two becoming “one flesh” in Genesis 2:24, but this is another way of saying “one in purpose” (see below). One still means one. They also refer to verses in which “one” is defining a compound element, such as “one people” (Genesis 11:6, 34:16), “one (single) cluster of grapes” (Numbers 13:23), or “one (whole) assembly” (Ezra 2:64). But in all these cases, it is the noun that echad modifies which gives it the compound quality, not the word echad itself. The words “cluster,” “people,” and “assembly” are words that have a compound meaning. But echad still means “one.” It is one cluster, one people, one assembly. One always means one.
Another misunderstanding of the word “one” is the frequently quoted saying of Jesus, “I and my Father are one” (John 10:30). But we saw from the context that when the Jews accused him of blasphemy, he responded with his clarification that he was the son of God. He could not have been saying that He was God. The word for “one” is the same word used a few chapters later, when Jesus prays that “all may be one.”
John 17:
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
Jesus could not have meant in John 10:30 that he was “one substance” with the Father, for in his prayer in chapter 17 he prayed that all may be one in the same way, “as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee,” and he could not pray that all people may be “one substance, co-equal, and co-eternal.” In both cases “one” is used in the sense of one in purpose, one heart, the same as when a married couple becomes “one flesh” (Matthew 19:5,6; Mark 10:8). Jesus and his Father are one in heart and purpose, and he prayed that all may be one in the same way.
There are a few other “proof texts” that are commonly used to prove that Jesus is God from the Scriptures. Colossians 2:9 says that in Jesus “dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.” This verse says that the fullness of God dwells in Christ. It does not say that he is God in a human body. II Corinthians 5:19 says that “God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself.” There is a big difference between having God in you and being God yourself.
Another “proof text” is John 8:58, “Before Abraham was, I am.” This is used to prove that Jesus existed before he was born. But could he contradict what he has clearly said elsewhere? He said he was not God but the Son of God in John 10:36, and that His Father was the only true God in John 17:3. In his discourse with the Jews here in chapter 8, he had not said, as the Jews thought, that he had seen Abraham (v. 57), but rather that Abraham rejoiced to see his day (v. 56). Jesus was the center of God’s plan, and his day was the subject of God’s promises to Abraham. The lamb was “crucified before the foundation of the world” (Revelation 13:8; I Peter 1:20).
When Jesus said “I am” in this context, it is thought to be a quote of God’s reference to Himself as I AM in Exodus 3:14. In that verse, when Moses asked what God’s name was and whom he should say sent him, God replied, “I AM THAT I AM” and then said, “Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.” The Septuagint (Greek translation of the Old Testament) renders “I AM THAT I AM” as ego eimi o on and then the second “I AM” as simply o on. God was not just saying “I AM I AM.” The phrase “I AM THAT I AM” literally means “I am the being” or “I am the self-existent one.” The phrase o on means “The Being” or “The Self-existent One.” God told Moses to say that “The Self-existent One” sent him.
However, Jesus did not claim this title. “I am” in John is not ego eimi o on, but just ego eimi. It is a common phrase which simply means “I am he” or “I am the one.” The blind man used the same phrase when he said “I am he” in John 9:9. Jesus used it twice before in the same chapter in which he said, “Before Abraham was, I am.”
John 8:
24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
25 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning.
26 I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him.
27 They understood not that he spake to them of the Father.
28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.
Jesus wasn’t saying he was “the Great I AM” or the “Self-existent One” as God is. He was simply saying “I am he,” which he defined in v.25 as “I am who I have been saying I am all along.” He’d been saying all along that he was the Son of God, not God in the flesh. And verse 28 says as plain as can be, “When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He.” The Son of Man is a title for the Messiah that originated in Daniel, and was a title that Jesus often used of himself. He uses it here, adding “I am he” (ego eimi). He also used the phrase “I (that speak to you) am he” in John 4:26, when he identifies himself as the Messiah to come. Son of Man and Son of God are Messianic titles, as well as “Messiah” itself, all of which refer to the One who was to come and declare God’s will, judge the world, and rule on God’s behalf, as well as offer himself as the ultimate sacrifice. This is who and what Jesus claimed to be.
Because this was all part of God’s plan, it is said that Jesus “came from God” (John 8:42). It also says he “came down from heaven” (John 6:38,41,42,51,58). Does that mean he existed as the Eternal Son before he came to earth? To “come down from heaven” is a Hebrew idiomatic expression that means something or someone came from God. In John 6:49-50 he said that the manna in the wilderness was bread which “came down from heaven.” Did that make the manna God? Did the bread pre-exist in heaven? Jesus came from God and was part of God’s eternal plan. That’s why he is said to have had glory with the Father before (John 17:5).
Another “proof” is in Philippians.
Philippians 2:
4 Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others.
5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
I mentioned in Part 2 that verse 6 does not say that he was God, but that he was in the form of God. The word for “form” is the Greek word morphe, meaning the external appearance. The word for “robbery” is harpagmos, meaning something to be seized. He did not think being equal (isos, same as in John 5:18, above) with God was something to be seized or grasped at. The Trinitarian slant on this is that Jesus, being God, chose to empty himself of his divinity and humbled himself as a servant. This is not stated in this verse, however, but is read into it. He was the visible representation of his Father, not his Father in human form. If he had been God, how could we “let this mind be in [us] which was also in Christ Jesus”?
Colossians 1 is a section that has several “proof texts” in it.
Colossians 1:
14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
This section is misunderstood largely because of the poorly translated prepositions, as well as the failure to understand the exalted position of Christ. I mentioned before how “the image of the invisible God” refers to his being the perfect representation of God. He is also the firstborn of every creature in the new creation, which will be completed when he returns. Then verse 16 refers to creation. The first word “by” (in the beginning of the verse) is actually en or “in.” The second word “by” (near the end of the verse) is dia meaning “through” or “for the sake of” and the word “for” is eis, which can be translated “unto” or “for.” The verse literally says, “In him were all things created that are in heaven and that are on earth…all things were created through or for the sake of him, and for him.”
The next verse continues with the prepositions. “Before” is pro and can refer to rank or importance as well as time. The word “by” in this verse is again en. He is before all things in rank and importance, and it is in him that all things consist. All these things describe the most highly exalted person in all of creation except for God himself, and that is exactly what Jesus Christ is.
There are other verses that are sometimes used to try to prove that Jesus is God, and that God consists of three persons. This is intended to be only a starting point. I exhort the reader to examine what Trinitarians say about them, and also examine what Unitarians say about them, and determine what the Bible says. All of the “proof texts” are reading the later doctrine of the Trinity back into the Scriptures. The fact is that it did not even exist as a doctrine until hundreds of years after the Canon of Scripture was closed.
To Be Continued…
Mark,
Great article indeed. I enjoyed your systematic lay-out. You are quite correct. The trinity and subsequent hybrids thereof were yesterday’s heresy becoming today’s orthodoxy. The trinity, as well these others, is to be regarded as among the teachings Paul refers to in Gal. 1:8, 9:
Now, it is very clear that Yahweh and His Son are two distinct persons, unequal in status, time and power. In fact, that is exactly what the first-century confessions were – even by Jesus himself.
John. 14:28: “…I am going my way to the Father, because the Father is greater than I am. ”
Acts 13:3: “The God of Abraham and of Isaac and of Jacob, the God of our forefathers, (Yahweh) has glorified his Servant, Jesus, whom you, for your part, delivered up and disowned before Pilate’s face…”
Even after his ultimate exaltation, Jesus is recognized as someone distinct and unequal with his Father:
1 Cor. 15:27, 28: “…But when he says that all things have been subjected, it is evident that it is with the exception of the one who subjected all things to him. But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone.”
1 Cor. 11:3: “But I want you to know that the head of every man is the Christ; in turn the head of a woman is the man; in turn, the head of the Christ is God.”
The holy spirit’s non-individuality or fluidity is a great proof of its non-personality. This inanimate activity of God is sometimes personified, but when it’s not, it is presented as it is: sacred spirit:
Acts 2:17: “And in the last days, God says, I shall pour out some of my spirit upon every sort of flesh…”
I agree with your assessment of Gen. 1:26. There is an interesting comparison we can make between Ha’Elohim’s “making” Adam (asa’) and the “one flesh” of Adam and Eve. This is an ignorant favorite of many on the “compound unity” bandwagon. Have you seen what the text says in Hebrew when Adam and Eve (one flesh) “made” clothes out of fig-leaves? (Ge. 3:7) Not asa’ (singular) but asu’ (plural). Like I said, something worse than knowing nothing is knowing a little. Those on the “compound unity” bandwagon base their whole argument on a big fat fallacy: false analogy. They’re not comparing apples to apples. No proof there!
You’re also correct in God’s and Jesus’ oneness. Jesus’ and Yahweh’s being one ≡ Jesus’ and our being one.
I’d like to add something to your assessment of Jesus’ preexistence. No one believing in pre-existence Christology will claim that Jesus’ literal flesh came down from heaven. Not one. Yet, if consistently applied, their very reasoning would have Jesus’ literal flesh come down from heaven! Look for instance at John. 6:51:
The Colossians section describes Jesus’ pre-eminence over God’s new creation. That is the key to understanding the whole section, even after correcting the mistranslations. Why? This is why:
Colossians 1:20: “…and through him to reconcile again to himself all things by making peace through the blood on the cross – no matter whether they are things upon the earth or the things in the heavens.”
So, these things pertain to humanity in line for redemption and creation into a new man. Nothing to do with the Genesis creation.
Sorry for my chipping in. I just thought I could share some of my own sentiments. Well done, brother.
Jaco
Mark C & Jaco
I’m reading a book called Did Calvin Murder Servetus? by Stanford Rives. In it he tries to lay out Servetus’ Christology. Do you agree or disagree with the following?
I’ve heard people say that God is a person. I’m not so sure about that being so.
I think of God as a being, a spiritual being who is greater than all other beings. All other beings are because of him. Without God there could be no other beings, for God is the creator of all those which were created by him.
The exception to spiritual beings that were created by God, seems to be Jesus. It seems to me that he was with God from everlasting,
even in him as his Son which God later sent into this world to be born of a woman in order to redeem us who had fallen through sin
and were in need of a Saviour to bring us back to God.
On the TV show Star Trek for example there were lots of life forms that were encountered by the people on the Star ship Enterprise.
When you think about those alien life forms, would you say that they are people? Would you say that they are persons? Those that were persons were actors, but I think of them as “beings”.
I was at a Church service a few weeks ago and in one of their songs the words were …”Three in one we name you…”
People will name God. When we worship him we tend to give him some kind of name by our worship, through our worship.
I like to have freedom in worship, but worship need to be right to be what worship toward God is to be. The real test to our worship will be if it is sung in heaven or not. Will it be sung in Zion (the heavenly city above) or will it not? That will be the real test.
Throughout history people have been known to make God according to what they have wanted to make him out to be. People have made false gods with their own hands. People have built systems of belief around God. Whether these systems will stand before him will one day be seen. All the works of man that are not of God will be consumed, and there will be no reward found in them. (see I Cor 3:13)
I prefer not to participate in describing God or naming God as three
in one, or triune. It seems to me to be of man’s doing.
In considering how important our worship is, a good scripture to read is Psalm 115. Our worship can have a profound effect upon us.
It can be as important as life or death. Our worship doesn’t change
or shape God, but rather it causes a change in us. We are changed by it. We can be either enlightened and purified through the process of it, or we can be corrupted through ourselves when it is not pure.
I believe our worship can be of God, because God has given us of his Spirit to lead us into worship of him and his Son Jesus. We have the scriptures to teach us how to worship God. There is so much worship in scriptures that one can think of it as a worship book, a divinely inspired worship book.
As we do have freedom to worship God, we also may refrain from it whenever what is sung or read doesn’t suit us well because of what we know or sense of God by his Spirit that he has given us.
Each of us are responsible for this unto God. We are to keep ourselves pure. We shouldn’t want to follow a crowd simply because everyone else does it.
It’s important that we learn to sense where the spirit of God is in all of this. There are many ways to worship and we need to be flexible as well as discerning.
II Timothy 2:19
Ray
The word “being” means a living thing, a person. This word has been wrongly given the meaning of “substance, nature” by the ancient Church Fathers, all of whom came from Roman-Greek philosophical backgrounds.
Hi guys, I would call myself a weakening trinitarian who is starting to to seriously examine unitarian arguments. But my question is this. Does your belief in Deity of Christ have an impact on your salvation. can you be a trinitarian or unitarian and still be saved, coz both views cant be right.
Hello Allen,
As a once Trinitarian myself I can relate to you. But it is not a simple answer, as I, and we, are not the ones to judge such matters. What we do know is that the most important commandment recited by Jesus in Mark 12:28, is understanding that God is one. This statement by Jesus coincides with the Sh’ma of Moses, and the commandment of God to worship no other gods.
The dilemma is about whether worshiping Jesus as God, is the same as worshiping another God, which is a clear violation of the commandments.
Personally, I think that only God can judge us on these issues and that if one has always been a Trinitarian and never heard of any other views that we will be judged accordingly to ignorance, not arrogance.
- Joseph
In short… we will be judged based upon what we know in how much truth we have received, and how we handled that truth.
Thanks Joseph, personally I think the most important New Testament doctrine is understanding the provision God made to make a person righteous. That doctrine is the ministry of our HighPreist. Christ’s once for all sacrifice must be mediated for it to be effective. Christ currently is in the Holy of Holies standing as our mediator were our sins are forgiven if we confess them. If we dont understand this, it matters not if we believe he is God or not.
A being may be either human or divine. A being is one who lives or exists.
A man can believe a lot of crazy things and still get to heaven. A man may be very sound in lots of facts and truths, understanding
a lot of information and be lost.
Only Jesus will get a man into heaven. People believe a lot of things that do not prevent them from entering heaven. Some people believe a lot of things that are right and will not enter heaven.
It’s up to the Lord Jesus to determine who will get into heaven for he is the door to the sheepfold. I do not believe there are any thieves in heaven. There may be a lot of them in the Church today
but I do not believe there are any with the Lord in heaven.
The Lord’s answer to the man who asked him what the first commandment of all was, is not just recorded in Mark 12:29 alone, but also includes verse 30. Jesus reminded the man of another one that is like the first one and that is recorded in the next verse.
We are commanded to hear that the Lord our God is one Lord, but
I wonder if that one alone will get a man into heaven.
Men may hold to the commandment to hear that God is one, but may miss so many other commandments and be full of sins.
Hey, Xavier!
That’s an interesting section. I never knew that Servetus actually viewed it that way. I don’t share his view in that regard. That, to me, sounds like a philosophical mind-game. I cannot see that the Christ (the Anointed One) was eternal while Jesus, the Christ, was human. It’s a paradox to me. Unless he meant that God’s intention of providing a Christ came from the eternal past, which materialized in creating Jesus as the One who would fulfill the role as Christ. That makes better sense to me.
That reminds me of the other post where you asked my opinion on Heb. 1:10 and Anthony Buzzard’s response to it. Have you listened to Anthony’s debate with Dr. Brown? They had a discussion on Heb. 1:10. What do you think of Anthony’s explanation? I completely forgot to reply to your question. Sorry for that.
Hi, Allen
I do share Joseph’s sentiments. You’re right that our confessing Jesus as our Redeemer and High Priest is what is required to gain salvation. There are, however, factors that could disqualify us from gaining salvation, even if we “confess” Christ as Lord:
Jude 4, 11: “My reason is that certain men have slipped in who have long ago been appointed by the Scriptures to this judgment, ungodly men, turning the undeserved kindness of our God into an excuse for loose conduct and proving false to our only Owner and Lord, Jesus Christ. Too bad for them, because they have gone in the path of Cain, and have rushed into the erroneous course of Balaam for a reward, and have perished in the rebellious talk of Korah.”
John 3:36: “He that exercises faith in the Son has everlasting life; he that disobeys the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains upon him.”
It is clear from these Scriptures that confessing Jesus as Lord and Redeemer does not exempt us from obeying the rest of Scripture. It certainly does not give us free rein to do and believe as we like. That would be the same as turning God’s gift of grace into an excuse for lose conduct. Among the things that we need to be obedient to along with our confessing Jesus as Lord and Redeemer, is:
John 4:24: “…those worshiping God must worship with spirit and truth.”
1 Tim 2:3, 4: “This is fine and acceptable in the sight of our Saviour, God, whose will is that all sorts of men should be save and come to an accurate knowledge of truth. ”
Worshiping God in truth is a requirement. That is as part of God’s redemption plan as it is to provide us with the One who is the “way, the truth and the light.”
So, yes, our confessing faith in our Redeemer and Lord is a central requirement for salvation, without disregarding the other supporting requirements, namely obedience and truth.
What say you?
In Christ,
Jaco
P.S. BTW, our hope is heavenly, meaning, not that our destination is heaven, but the Source of our hope is in heaven. Heaven is not the destination of any man (other than Jesus). The righteous shall inherit the earth (Mat. 5:5) period…
Hey Jaco!
I do agree that Servetus is too philosophical at times and hard to read. I have his last work, The Restitution of Christianity, and it is very difficult to sometimes see what his point is. I am still unsure whether he was an Arian or unitarian. Have you read any of his stuff?
I am not still fully sold on Anthony’s interpretation of Heb 1.10 and the connection reference to . I still think it leaves us open to trying to explain why only in this instance the phrase “in the beginning you laid the foundations of the heavens and the earth” is referring to the Millenial age to come. Since I cannot find any other reference where this phrase is used in an eschatological sense. In every one of its occurence in the OT it explicitly refers back to the Genesis creation. Although I do agree that the Psalm the Hebrews writer cites here [Ps 102] is a Messianic eschatological one.
The other problem for us is how teneous the LXX has become over the centuries. It has undergone way more translator’s mishandling which might make what we have now not align with what the NT writers had in front of them.
What say you?
Allen, Welcome!
I, too, am a former trinitarian. I have had the same question and posed it to clergy numerous times. I have received just as many different reactions/explinations. When my own salvation is questioned John 17:3 often stops the accusations quickly:
And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.
I am very secure in my belief of life in the age to come. As Joseph stated above, I do not judge beliefs contrary to mine but do freely share biblical verses that support my beliefs. God will do the final judging, not me.
Please feel free to ask any/all your questions among this group. I have found them to be very considerate and engaging. I pray your search for the truth never ends.
God bless!
I think Hebrews 1:10 is one of the many scriptures that apply to Jesus just as much as they do to God the Father. There are so many scriputures in that regard.
Frank D, about the accusations concerning your own salvation which you mention above, did they come from men, the devil, or both?
If from men, in what form did they come? If by lies, deceit, or manipulations of men, we can expose those things and help liberate people from those devices. People often get hurt by people who either mean well, or think that they mean well and don’t really know what they are doing.
I guess that’s why erasers are put on pencils, and why we need the blood of Jesus.
Ray, Who do you think wrote John 17:3?
To all who have responded to my post, thankyou for the gracious welcome,
Whenever I see the warnings given in the New Testament about dealing harshly with a brother, the last thing I want to do is question some one’s place in the family of God. Like I said earlier, I am seriously questioning the doctrine of the Trinity, but at this stage in my understanding I would have no hesitation in recognising the brotherhood of people from both sides of this debate. As regards to inheriting salvation and gaining entrance into the age to come, the chief guideline that I can see in attaining it in the Gospels is walking in the will of the Father and loving your brother’s. I believe that Christian’s are presently redeemed by the blood but that our salvation is totally future, they are not the same thing.
Galatians 3:13, Ephesians 1:7, Collossians 1:14, Corinthians 6:20, 1 Corinthians 7:23 , 1 Peter 1:18,
Matthew 10:22, Matthew 19:25, Romans 13:11, 1 Corinthians 15:2 ,
Philippians 2:12, Thessalonians 5:9 , 2 Timothy 2:10 , 2 Timothy 4:18, Hebrews 1:14 , Hebrews 9:28, Hebrews 10:39 , James 1:21,
1 Peter 1:5 , 1 Peter 1:9, 1 Peter 2:2.
I know there are verses that seem to teach that salvation is a present possession, but when studied deeper I think they are being used in a very technical way which I would not do justice too in a short post like this. Salvation, entering the Kingdom and our adoption as sons are all future and are conditioned on our walking in obedience to the Gospel, which is why the early church preached it predominantly to already redeemed people.
Eternal life as I see it, is not the duration of the life, but the quality of the life and should be translated as Life of the Age.
The duration of your existence is tied into the concept of immortality. Eternal life and immortality are two different things.
I cant see one verse in the Bible that teaches that a redeemed person can become unredeemed, but they do have two possible outcomes at the judgement seat of Christ, Dan 12:2, John 5:25, Acts 24:14-15.
Dont take this post as an attack on anyone who does not see it this way, Im just sharing with you some of my beliefs.
GOD bless
Frank D
As I see it, what Jesus wanted the people to believe about himself in Johns Gospel was that he was the promised Messiah. I know many trinitarians who believe this, so I am hoping that all who seek to honour God with thier lives will be judged favourably
Frank, it seems to me that whoever it was that wrote the gospel of John likely also wrote John 17:3. I believe it was John one of he 12 who was with Jesus shortly before he was betrayed and killed, a disciple who understood that he was loved by Jesus.
Jaco,
What I mean when I speak about the Priesthood of Christ is that no matter what else we believe from the scriptures, whether its right or wrong, if we do not come before God through our highpriest then every thing else we believe is irrelevant. Christ,s once and for all sacrifice is inadequate in and of itself unless that sacrifice is mediated. Thats why he is STILL in the Holy of Holies acting as our advocate at this very minute.
Every thing that we do that is accepted by God is accepted through our Highpriest and his mediation. We can believe the creed of Israel all we want. But if we neglect the ministry of our Highpriest then our creeds are worthless. The terms IN HIM or IN CHRIST are technical terms for walking under this ministry.
Forgive me if Im a bit sensitive here, but I know people who believe that Jesus is God and who serve him and love him with all there heart. These people take very seriously thier walk with The Lord and I for one consider them to be dear brothers.
I agree that not every one who says Lord Lord will be accepted. But confessing Jesus as Lord and walking under his ministry as Highpriest are two different things. Because its at the throne of grace were God meets a sincere heart with all its shortcomings with mercy on the basis of the sacrifice of His Son.
Allen
Are you saying that you regard everyone who “believes in Christ” as part of the body, that is the Church? This includes Catholics, Mormons etc.
Also, would you agree that salvation is first and foremost the ability to know, to perceive, recognize, become acquainted with, and understand that the Father is the only one true God, which means YHWH is one person [Deu 6.4; Mar 12.29; John 17.1, 3]?
Xavier
Im not saying that everyone that is in the systems that you mention are part of the body. What I am saying is that there are many people in these systems that are Redeemed and need to hear the Gospel. Ask yourself this question. Why did Paul desire to preach the Gospel to people who were already believers in Romans 1: 15. The lost in scripture is always a reference to Gods people who have went astray, not John Doe who is into booze and drugs and hates God. The Gospel should be preached to Gods people.
It is God who redeems people, once they are redeemed its our responsibility to help them walk in obedience to the Gospel so that they will enter the kingdom with thier full inheritance, Hebrews chapters 3 and 4, and 1 Corinthians 10;1-12 could not be any clearer.
In regards to your second point, first and foremost salvation is recognising that Jesus is the Christ. Jesus said, if you love me you will keep my commandments and that if a person done this then both He and the Father would make thier abode with them.
What I do see clearly in scripture is that at the judgement seat, our attitude and treatment of our brothers will have a massive say in our own judgement. I think there is a massive surprise ahead at the Bema for a lot of docrinally pure people who showed no compassion for thier brothers in Christ, I hope Im not one of them.
God Bless you
This verse caught my attention just now.
John 6:56
He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
There’s a lot of things men might believe that will not keep them out of Christ, nor keep Christ from them. As we continue in Christ
a lot of things will pass away. I’ve seen this happening in my life
and know it will continue, as I continue in the Word.
Ray
Good point brother, we all must develop a heart for our brothers, even the ones who see things slightly different. This whole trinitarian vs unitarian debate has maybe polarised and hardened a few hearts. But we must recognise that there are good people who are trying to walk with God in both camps. I’m not saying that we should abandon our beliefs in the cause of unity, no way. But we should at least not try to judge completely a persons genuineness based on this issue. Pauls heart for his brothers who were not walking in obedience to the Gospel should humble us all
God Bless
Xavier,
I see your point. I think the challenge here is to immerse one in the whole idea of physical creation/new creation. True, when we read about creation, we immediately think of the Genesis account. But, as we know, the New Testament introduces another creation - the re-creation (Mt. 19:28). We are now in the preparatory phase of the whole New Creation process (Eph. 1:10-14).
But, as we have seen, creation in the NT does in many areas refer to humankind as the target for God’s New Creation campaign. I think immediately of Colossians 1 (esp vss. 20, 23) and Romans 8. Now, with this in mind, and the introduction of Hebrews 1:1-4, we need to address the rest of the book of Hebrews.
I don’t know about you, but the introductory chapters of Hebrews do seem to me to contain repetitive statements of Messianic triumph.
Heb. 1:1-4 starts with a background of God’s dealing with people since ancient times, and reaches the climax in verse 4 where it says,
“So he has become better than the angels, to the extent that he has inherited a name more excellent that theirs.”
Heb. 1:5, 6 starts with an argument reaching the climax again:
“But when he again brings the first-born into the inhabited earth, he says: ‘And let all God’s angels do obeisance to him.’ ”
Heb. 1:7-12 he starts again with an argument and quickly reaches a climax in vs. 8, 9, 10, 11, 12. The writer of Hebrews does indeed use repetitive arguments of climactic build-up in the opening chapter of Hebrews. The time-aspect of this application is “when he again bring his first-born into the inhabited earth.”
In chapter 2 verse 5 he resumes his argument pointing again to the time aspect of climactic fulfilment, when he says:
“For it is not to angels that he has subjected the inhabited earth to come, about which we are speaking”
So, the writer of Hebrews uses OT references and proleptically apply them to the Messianic fulfilment of the future re-creation.
Something else that stands out is the writer’s usage and application of LXX texts. Needless to say, these texts do not occur in the Masoretic text. But the application and arguments the writer uses are, in my opinion, valid, since it explains much of what the first-century understanding and expectations were of the Messianic New Order. Dr. Brown had an issue with his. He asked Sir Anthony, for instance, whether the writer changed the OT meanings of the texts he used. Well, dr. Brown should take issue, not with Sir Anthony, but with the writer of Hebrews! It was HE who used it this way, and it is DR BROWN who accepts the book as part of the canon. So, dr. Brown has to accept the inclusion of variant readings and their unique application in the text of Hebrews.
I for one would not call it “change.” The book of Enoch, for instance, is not included in our accepted Bible canon, but Jude quotes from it (Jude 14, 15). The traditional understanding of the time also had Paul include the names of the Egyptian magicians in his letter to Timothy (2 Tim. 3:8). Our accepting the current arrangement of Biblical books will have us accept the inclusion and usage of these otherwise non-biblical information.
Now, to return to our Hebrews 1 discussion. It is clear, as I said, that this writer used the LXX extensively. His usage, however, needn’t be understood to be a “change” but a Messianic “extension.” Look for instance at ch. 1:6. The writer uses the added “and let all God’s angels do obeisance to him” and apply it to the Lord of the New Creation, Jesus. He does it also in vs. 8, where the O God (grammatical variant) is extended to apply, not to the Israelite king, but to the Messianic King, Jesus. These only apply to Jesus insofar as his appointment and function as Lord of the New Creation is concerned.
I enjoyed Sir Anthony’s reference to Isaiah 51:16. Here He says:
“And I put My words in thy mouth, and I have covered thee in the shadow of Mine hand, that I may set heavens in place, and lay the
foundations of earth, and say unto Zion, Thou art My people.”
Compare this to Heb. 1:10, and we see who the one was whom Yahweh chose to plant the heavens and the earth of the New Creation…
Looking forward to your reply, brother.
Allen,
Rest assured, I do appreciate your sensitivity in this matter. Judgment is not in our hands. When I say judgment, I refer to, not only disqualification from gaining eternal life, but also qualification. This side of judgment we have a hope, and this hope is what we need to cherish and refine.
Philippians 3:12: “Not that I have already received it or am already made perfect, but I am pursuing to see if I may also lay hold on that for which I have also been laid hold on by Christ Jesus.”
What we do find is that many, many people are sincerely worshiping God in a way they have been taught. Sincerity, unfortunately, prevents them from seeing Biblical truth accurately. That does not make me a judge of their eternal prospects. I’m merely stating what their current situation is. Their heart condition will most certainly be taken into consideration at our Lord’s return.
Romans 10:2 “For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God; but not according to accurate knowledge.”
So, judgment is an area completely out of our league. We should not even think in those terms. What is within our league, however, is our reaction to presented truth. Everyone is at a different level of spiritual growth and on diverse roads. We need to appreciate and acknowledge that. So, instead of being overly concerned about how Jesus will judge these who wholeheartedly worship God (albeit erroneously), we should be concerned over what WE do about the situation.
This is where the Great Commission comes in. We need to plant seeds of Biblical truth. We need to water those seeds. God is the one that will make them grow (1 Cor. 3:5-9). We who have the knowledge see, for instance, that Roman Catholic saint worship is a form of idolatry. We thus have a responsibility to present Catholics with truth. Even though they believe in the sacrifice of Jesus, idolatry does detract from pure worship (1 Cor. 6:9-11). But that is where our responsibility stops. Judgment is simply not our call! It goes with non-Christian religious people as well. Sincerity and wholehearted worship on their part will also be taken into conideration at judgment. It is exactly that (sincerity and wholeheartedness) that prevents a Muslim, for instance, to accept Jesus as the Son of God, the sacrificial Lamb. They need to be shown the truth. Once again, that is where it stops. Judgment is not our call.
What we also need to keep in mind is that our current position will determine whether we will be resurrected in the first or second resurrection. This too, is God’s call. And, as I said, we need to ensure that we constantly seek truth and humbly submit to that. Present truth to those that are demonstrably in error, and allow God’s spirit to let it grow.
Our trust and our faith in the compassionate God, Yahweh (2 Cor. 1:3, 4), as well as our tender High Priest, Jesus the Messiah (Heb. 4:15), will move us to have peace in this area of judgment.
In Christ,
Jaco
Allen
I thought we were “redeemed” by hearing and understanding the Gospel of the Kingdom of God and knowing who Jesus really is. As you probably know true faith comes by hearing the word of God, which is the Gospel of His coming Kingdom on earth and the human Messiah.
Of course, repitition is a great tool even for those of us who consider ourseleves of the sound doctrine. But note that the Pauline letters are addressing specific cases of holiness within the already established body of Christ, the church. Its not as if his preaching it for the very first time to them so they can come to faith. As you said, they are already part of “the faith of Jesus”.
I think what defines a Christian is not just having some abstract type of morals and ethics. If these were the case, most people [religious or not] would qualify based on them being good citizens. A lack of a right doctrine is typified by Paul as the source for the “great apostasy”.
As the parable of the sower suggests, a Christian is one who truly hears and understands God’s word [seed] and obviously goes on to practice it [Mat 13.23 is about how the Son of God is greater than all of God’s creation as a whole [angels, humans alike].
As to Anthony’s Isa 51,16 text to back up the New Creation that is enacted by the one YHWH is addressing, this translation is not backed by the majority of bible versions. Which read:
CORRECTION:
Allen
Sorry the last part was meant for someone else…
Jaco
Yes agree, Hebrews 1 is about how the Son of God is greater than all of God’s creation as a whole [angels, humans alike].
As to Anthony’s Isa 51.16 text to back up the New Creation that is enacted by the one YHWH is addressing, this translation is not backed by the majority of bible versions. Which read:
Xavier,
I dont see it that way Bro, most of the New Testament, like the Old Testament was written to make the redeemed walk in the obedience of faith.
Consider the following passage 2 Corinthians 3:12-4:6, and ask yourself, who did Moses hide his face from?, answer, Gods redeemed. Who have a veil over thier heart? Gods redeemed, the sons if Israel. Who has Satan blinded the minds of, its certainly not the ones who are dead in trespass and sins, they cant see anyway. I know this paradigm shift is radicle, but the ones who are perishing are Gods people who are not walking in obedience to the Gospel. Note the use of the subjunctive in John 3:16.
Christ’s whole ministry was to the lost sheep of the house of Israel, they were Gods sheep who had went astray. The greek word for lost is appollumi, which means perishing. Take a good look at the church around you. Thousands of brothers and sisters are perishing. Its them that need to hear the Gospel of Christ’s coming Kingdom.
Believing the Gospel is not a one time act, it is a walk of faith for Gods people. Read the following passage from Hebrews and ask yourself, Who is the writer using as an example of unbelief to teach his readers a vital truth, answer in verse 16. Then ask yourelf who the writer is warning, answer in verse 12.
Therefore, just as the Holy Spirit says, “TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE,
8 DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS AS WHEN THEY PROVOKED ME, AS IN THE DAY OF TRIAL IN THE WILDERNESS,
9 WHERE YOUR FATHERS TRIED Me BY TESTING Me, AND SAW MY WORKS FOR FORTY YEARS.
10 “THEREFORE I WAS ANGRY WITH THIS GENERATION, AND SAID, ‘THEY ALWAYS GO ASTRAY IN THEIR HEART, AND THEY DID NOT KNOW MY WAYS’;
11 AS I SWORE IN MY WRATH, ‘THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST.’”
12 Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called “Today,” so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end, 15 while it is said, “TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE, DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS, AS WHEN THEY PROVOKED ME.”
16 For who provoked Him when they had heard? Indeed, did not all those who came out of Egypt led by Moses? 17 And with whom was He angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness? 18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who were disobedient? 19 So we see that they were not able to enter because of unbelief.
GOD BLESS
Xavier,
The parable of the sower in my opinion is addressing four attitudes of Gods people when they hear the Good news. The fourth soil are the ones who walk in obedience to the message. Just like Israel in the Old Testament, only a remnant obeyed.
I will try to paste a link to a friend of mine who preached on this parable, listen and tell me what you think bro.
http://www.thegrovebiblefellowship.com/listen_entering.html